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9/3/2011 - White Draws


  • 3 years ago · Quote · #121

    recycleourknowledge

    Damn I was lost so many times on this one

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #122

    recycleourknowledge

    Why not Promote a Knight and GG it?

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #123

    kskid

    I think I missed the point of this one.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #124

    idoun

    IncrediBill wrote:

    Everyone should check out Azukikuru's analysis in Post #70 on Page 4.  He answers a lot of the questions that everyone is repeatedly asking.


    The problem is that this site is full of yahoos so there are always 7 pages of pointless, nonsensical comments and no one can find the valuable ones like the reference you gave. Persons should only comment if they have something useful to say.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #125

    dctpianist

    For those saying that moves 2 and 3 are confusing, please do one minute of analysis. It's not particularly difficult.


    For anyone who was wondering why white didn't take the "free" bishop with their rook on move 3, there is also an easy answer (I'll be honest, I had a brain fart and was wondering about this myself until I sat down and did 2 seconds of analysis. Go analysis!).



    Bluefirelight, I'm not the best at endgames, but I'll do my best to answer your question. I believe sacrificing the queen and moving the h pawn would still be a drawish position, in which white would be able to simplify the game down to a bishop and a king vs. a king. A bishop and 3 pawns vs. a rook would typically be fairly strong for the side with the pawns, however, black has several problems which would make this hard, if not impossible, for them to win. First, black's king is positioned poorly in a corner where it has limited mobility compared to white's king. Second, none of black's pawns are connected, making them easy pickings for white's rook. I think that black would eventually lose both the c and the f pawn, at which point white would be able to sacrifice his rook to take the h pawn and force a draw, if not find a way to win outright. I have attempted to analyze this position as well as black's position if they do not promote the e pawn in response to Rg2, but as I have said, endgame is one of my weak points and I believe my analyses are slightly flawed and do not show the best continuations for either side. Would someone better at analysis like to confirm or discredit my gut feeling that black would not be able to win this particular 3 pawns + bishop vs. rook endgame?

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #126

    rdynabll

    DingoLoco wrote:

    ???? Sorry... but I don´t get it at all... a lot of movements don´t make sense to me!!!  for example after 3. Re2 the Queen should take the Rook... but bc3??? Can anyone explain me this nonsense movements??


    Pawn gets promoted to queen on the 1st rank. White rook is on the 2nd rank, so the new black queen cannot take it. But yes, 2...Bg7 does not have to happen. But moving the h pawn also leads to a draw. Moving any other black piece except the new queen is checkmate for white via 3.Rg8!, see?

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #127

    rdynabll

    rdynabll wrote:
    zadignose wrote:

    Some folks aren't looking very carefully before commenting.

    For those who keep asking why the queen can't capture the rook, it's because doing so leaves whitewith NO MOVES.  It's stalemate.  White is offering to give away his rook in order to stalemate himself.

    For those who complain that the moves aren't all forced... great.  The moves don't have to all be forced, but the moves that are given illustrate the fact that the draw is inescapable by any tactic.

    Regarding the comment that the bishop isn't forced to move to g7:  Again, sure, but the only other way to avoid immediate checkmate is to move the pawn, resulting in EXACTLY the same draw we get at the end here.

    Part of the beauty of the exercise is how the pawn which promotes to a queen finds itself in an awkward position which is not able to do anything to help out on the back rank, or in any other way prevent the draw... in fact it's the very piece that makes the draw inescapable.


    what about 2...Qe8+


    Oh, never mind. White king just goes back to f7 after Kxe8.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #128

    cfrench49

    Good one.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #129

    ellge

    zadignose wrote:

    Some folks aren't looking very carefully before commenting.

    For those who keep asking why the queen can't capture the rook, it's because doing so leaves whitewith NO MOVES.  It's stalemate.  White is offering to give away his rook in order to stalemate himself.

    For those who complain that the moves aren't all forced... great.  The moves don't have to all be forced, but the moves that are given illustrate the fact that the draw is inescapable by any tactic.

    Regarding the comment that the bishop isn't forced to move to g7:  Again, sure, but the only other way to avoid immediate checkmate is to move the pawn, resulting in EXACTLY the same draw we get at the end here.

    Part of the beauty of the exercise is how the pawn which promotes to a queen finds itself in an awkward position which is not able to do anything to help out on the back rank, or in any other way prevent the draw... in fact it's the very piece that makes the draw inescapable.


    Sorry, . I'm tired today and had the computer solving it for me. The bishop had already moved to c3 when I thought it was a good idea to capture the rook.... :-) :-)

    Still , I will investigate the position closer when I'm more alert. Seems unbelievable that black cannot  promote to knight or else get a favourable endgame with 2-3 pawns and bishop against the rook. I've seen worse but it looks worth while to do a thorough analysis.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #130

    ellge

    ellge wrote:
    zadignose wrote:

    Some folks aren't looking very carefully before commenting.

    For those who keep asking why the queen can't capture the rook, it's because doing so leaves whitewith NO MOVES.  It's stalemate.  White is offering to give away his rook in order to stalemate himself.

    For those who complain that the moves aren't all forced... great.  The moves don't have to all be forced, but the moves that are given illustrate the fact that the draw is inescapable by any tactic.

    Regarding the comment that the bishop isn't forced to move to g7:  Again, sure, but the only other way to avoid immediate checkmate is to move the pawn, resulting in EXACTLY the same draw we get at the end here.

    Part of the beauty of the exercise is how the pawn which promotes to a queen finds itself in an awkward position which is not able to do anything to help out on the back rank, or in any other way prevent the draw... in fact it's the very piece that makes the draw inescapable.


    Sorry, . I'm tired today and had the computer solving it for me. The bishop had already moved to c3 when I thought it was a good idea to capture the rook.... :-) :-)

    Still , I will investigate the position closer when I'm more alert. Seems unbelievable that black cannot  promote to knight or else get a favourable endgame with 2-3 pawns and bishop against the rook. I've seen worse but it looks worth while to do a thorough analysis.


    Seems dctpianist is rght. My scidlet analysis engine cannot find a way for black to win. The misplaced black king and the isolated pawns are the cause of this. If black tries too hard to win he may even find himself a looser :-). I have no variation ready but I remeber studying rook-endings long ago when there exesisted position with bishop against rook where the rook would attack the bishop and if the bishop moved it was chess mate. But such a loss would take some effort :-) .-).

    Very nice puzzle!

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #131

    chessleogeo

    interesting

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #132

    saijiki88

    Sorry, I pressed the help button more than once.  Interesting puzzle, but I only got about half the moves!

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #133

    Lbrto369

    and here i was searching for white to win... when it was supposed to be a draw.. . Foot in mouth

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #134

    Daryl_F

    What about 1. Kf7...seems to force Bg7  2. Rxg7 h5  3. Rg8+ Kh7  4. Re8

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #135

    dctpianist

    dfouard wrote:

    What about 1. Kf7...seems to force Bg7  2. Rxg7 h5  3. Rg8+ Kh7  4. Re8


    1. Kf7 "forces" exg4 and white loses immediately. You always want to pay close attention to pawns, they're sneaky little buggers sometimes!

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #136

    melodyzhang

    draw is the best thing white cant get... don't go dreaming go dreaming about some hope that white s going to come up with some fiendishly clever  plan an d checkmate black... no way Jose

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #137

    jinnd319

    WORST PUZZLE EVER. WHITE LOST THAT HANDS DOWN WHAT THE HECK WERE YOU THINKING. LOOK AT IT. EVEN ENDING POSITION BLACK CAPTURES ROOK THEN WHAT?

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #138

    chessgenius2014

    cool

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #139

    dctpianist

    jinnd319 wrote:

    WORST PUZZLE EVER. WHITE LOST THAT HANDS DOWN WHAT THE HECK WERE YOU THINKING. LOOK AT IT. EVEN ENDING POSITION BLACK CAPTURES ROOK THEN WHAT?


    Dear jinnd,

    Posting in all caps does not magically make you right. Please look at one of serveral dozen comments, or one of 3 or 4 analyses, and learn why this is a good puzzle.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #140

    kaichess

    not easy, good for saturday


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