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Very tough I've found. Can't even feel like I (White) can get an advantage...
Black's minority attack keeps the White King out of play and Black's Bishop rules the day...easily worth at least 4 pawns here.
I of course wouldn't mind a concrete, bulletproof line, but I know there aren't any. So please don't answer with analysis but talk to me about themes - any way to get White's kingside rolling here?
Glad you found it so easy.... I analyzed for hours and hadn't found anything.
Why don't we play it out here, given that you've got an obvious solution...
Do you want White or Black? It's White to play.
Look forward to your response.
White needs to find a way to trade off the rooks, then the win should be fairly easy I think. A higher rated player might say something else but that's the easiest way to win in my opinion. White's rook is misplaced at the moment though and that could be hard to do, so perhaps that is not feasible. Obviously the first move white should play is h3, to protect that pawn. Thrusting the king-side pawns forward would be the main idea.
I'd be more than happy to play the position out with you, I think that white should win with correct play, and a few mistakes would probably only cost white half a point.
Well we just spent two hours analysing it, and I could not even manage a draw as white! How absurd!
Isn't White losing a pawn right off the bat? h3 Rg7 g4 Rh7 and the h3-pawn is gone.
Even aside from that, Black's pieces are much better placed -- his bishop is on a strong diagonal to attack/impede the White pawns' advance, and the rook has room to harass the White pawns as in the above line. Conversely, White's rook is in an unfortunate defensive post, and his king is far from being able to support the advance. There's more to endgame assessments than just the material!
I like pawns myself, but after losing one of the kingside convoy, I see no reason White should consider his game better; a draw is probably a fine result.
Highlight the text in between the two "spoiler"s to see the engine continuation (by Crafty, the FICS engine, at depth 14.)
1. h3 Kc6 2. Kd2 Rg7 3. g4 Rh7 4. f5 Rxh3 5. f6 Kd5 6. Re8 Bf4+ 7. Ke2 Rh2+ 8. Kf3 Bg5 9. f7 Bh4 10. f8Q (at depth 13 it said f8R!) Rf2+ 11. Ke3 Rxf8 12. Rxf8 Bg5+ 13. Kd3 Bc1 14. Rf5+ Kd6 15. b3 Kc6 16. Rf6+ Kb7 17. Kc4 Bd2 18. Kd5 Bc1 19. Rf5 Kc7 20. g5 Kb6 21. g6 Bh6 22. Rf7 Kb5 23. Rb7+ Ka5 24. Rh7 Bf8 25. g7 Bxg7 26. Rxg7 Kb6 27. Rh7 Ka5 28. a4 Kb6 29. Re7 a5 30. Kd6 Ka6 31. Kc7 Ka7 32. Re8 Ka6 33. Ra8#, so the initial position is a mate in 33 according to Crafty
@checkmate Wow.... You got something like that at depth 14? That's 7 full moves.
I can't believe it.
I sent you a message but I'm going to try to tear your analysis apart! :)
Should we maintain the hidden spoiler or do you mind that I post any "improvements" I might find here?
Post it in white text, so that no one can see it unless they want to.
In your line (My move numbers are off - subtract 31 from yours) - you play...
32. h3 Kc6 33. Kd2 Rg7 34. g4 Rh7 35. f5 Rxh3 36. f6 Kd5??
But what do you do after....
I think Black wins there.
(In the future I think this problem will be too difficult to do only with spoilers - we'll let anyone who is interested work on it for a day or two but at some point I think we'll need to post competing PGNs with analysis.)
What do you mean? The rook is on e4 in that position, unless I setup the position wrong or something.
"What do you mean? The rook is on e4 in that position, unless I setup the position wrong or something."
White's Rook is on e4. Black's rook (in your line) is on h3. I'm suggesting black play 36...Rf3.
Oh okay. I mis-read it and thought you said 36.Rf3.
I agree with your assessment... White does lose a pawn quickly and I agree that it should be a theoretical draw...
But, playing the White pieces proves very tough practically, as vowles and I learned. To put it colloquially, "White has to be a lot more accurate than Black," as it were, to hold, in my opinion.
My post title was a bit of a red herring, of course, but I'd go so far as to say that Black is better, especially in a practical situation...
Spiffe, would you mind posting a line of best play wherein White defuses Black's threats and cheapos quickly?
Okay this is weird... before it said that white is winning, now it says -1.44! So you were right when saying that white can not get an advantage.
After Rf3.. the game could continue as follows.
6. g5 Rg3 7. Re2 Rxg5 8. Rf2 Ra5 9. c4 Rxa2 10. Kd3 Bc5 11. f7 Bf8 (now it says -0.24) 12. Re2 b3 13. Re8 Bg7 Rc8+ Kd6 15. Rg8 Rxb2 16. Rxg7 Rf2 17. Kc3 Rf3+ 18. Kb2 Kc5 20. Kxb3 a5 (The tablebase says this is now a draw, but since they all pretty much say draw, I will continue with the engine.) 21. Rg5+ Kc6 22. Rxa5 Rf1 23. Ra8 Kc5 24. Rc8+ Kd4 25. Rd8+ Kc5 26. Rd5+ Kb6 27. Ka4 Rc1 28. Kb4 Rb1+ 29. Ka3 Rc1 30. Rb5+ Kc6 31. Kb4 (now it says 0.00, which means dead draw.) 31... Rb1+ 32. Ka4 Ra1+ 33. Kb3 Rb1+ 34. Ka4 and a threefold is sure to occur.
Gotta stop you again....
I'm pretty certain White's toast after 38... Bf4 instead of your text.
32. h3 Kc6 33. Kd2 Rg7 34. g4 Rh7 35. f5 Rxh3 36. f6 Rf3 37. g5 Rg3 38. Re2 Rxg5?!
[ … ...but Black has... 38... Bf4! 39. Kd1 Rxg5 40. Re4 Bd6 ...and I think Black is winning here. ]
After Bf4+ the game would continue...
1. Kd1 Rxg5 2. Re7 Rf5 3. f7 Bc7 4. Ke2 a5 5. Kd3 Kd6 6. Ke4 Rf1 7. Rxc7 Kxc7 8. a3 Rxf7 9. axb4 axb4 and this is a tablebase win for black as follows:
1. Kd3 Rf2 2. Kc4 Rxc2+ 3. Kxb4 Kb6 4. Kb3 Rc1 5. Kb4 Rc6 6. b3 Rc7 7. Ka4 Kc5 8. b4+ Kc4 9. Ka5 Rb7 10. b5 Rxb5 and black goes on to mate with king and rook vs king in 6 moves.
I think, despite the somewhat absurd lines that have shown up, that Spiffe put it best in terms of analysis...
"Even aside from that, Black's pieces are much better placed -- his bishop is on a strong diagonal to attack/impede the White pawns' advance, and the rook has room to harass the White pawns as in the above line. Conversely, White's rook is in an unfortunate defensive post, and his king is far from being able to support the advance. There's more to endgame assessments than just the material!"
...but it's worth noting that the first response said "easy win for White," and the second seemed to concur (at first!).
I could put an engine on this and work out all the drawing lines (and I might do that) but I'll bet that in the final tree that I assemble, there will be a (and I repeat myself) a lot more ways for White to make a misstep than Black, which is one way of saying that even in a drawn position, one side can still be "better"... and I contest that that side is Black.
Anyway, given the tenor of this discussion, this might be a good position to take up against a computer as White and ensure that you can hold a draw. I don't think it's as trivial as it looks, which is of course to simply rephrase Spiffe's contention that "there's more to endgame evaluation...."
Thanks for your contributions Spiffe and if anyone finds any surprising twists (most likely for Black) in their evals, I'd appreciate seeing them!
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