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Did White lose a drawn endgame?


  • 15 months ago · Quote · #1

    yeres30

    White tried to win this endgame and lost.



  • 15 months ago · Quote · #2

    builderboss126

    first yay and white-white just-i don't even know

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #3

    br0de

    way to complicated for me to analyze

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #4

    Phylar

    White would need to travel across the board to his a4 pawn. Black is unable to attack either of his pawn islands due to the fact that it would take very little to get a pawn past and he would lose. Therefore the only real weakness lies in the a-b pawns.

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #5

    sisu

    Let's make it happen!

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #6

    Remellion

    White rushes his king to the queenside and waits. Black can force a single passed pawn there, but needs to defend it with his king. Trying to go after white's pawns via ...Ke4-d3/f3 would likely backfire to d5 exf5 f5 where white promotes a step ahead of black and can win the Q+P v P ending with some technique. White's king can guard his weak c-pawn to boot.

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #7

    yeres30

    Actually, if White brought his K to d2, and moved back and forth between d2 and c2 (Kd2, Kc2) I believe it is a draw.

    For Black's K would not dare go to f3 to pick upu the g-pawn because ...Kf3 loses to d5 exd5; f5 Kxg3; f6 Kh2; f7 g6; f8=Q g7; and White has a theoretical win.



  • 15 months ago · Quote · #8

    riuryK

    Actually I think the key is to put your king on e4. You can do that by triangulation, although Black has still a waiting move (a6). Once you get your King there, and depending on the opposite King, I would try to break with either d5 (if the King is on the kingside) or f5 is the King is on the queenside, after which I think that c4 or g4 would drop. In the case of c4, I think that Black can still defend the position due to the pawn majority. However if it f4 to drops the distant passed pawns should be decisive, forcing the black King to stop it, and in the meantime White could pick up all black pawns on the queenside.

    That is at a first glance, but this is anyway a hard one.

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #9

    Remellion

    Well, that is exactly what Yeres tried in his game. And lost. The issue is that plonking your king on e4 allows black to try and force a passed pawn on the queenside, and your own king is almost not fast enough to get back in time. (...a6 is a useful move that prepares ...b5 axb5 a5!)

    Specifically, I think 4. f5? was a blunder in the first post, since it takes the king one step away from a1; 4...exf5+ 5. Kxf5 b5 6. axb5 a5 would have decided quickly for black I think.

    In fact, if I were to judge the initial position, it looks as though white's central 2v1 majority is weaker than black's 2v1 queenside majority, as black's king stops white's pawns while the white king is far away. White looks to be in more danger than black, so I'd be happy settling for a draw via getting the king to the queenside.

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #10

    riuryK

    For e4 you can stop black's pawn after the exchange on b5 and the push to a5. The king from e4 travels thru e3-d2-c2, etc, whereas black cannot forget that now white has also a passed pawn on b5. After both pawns are stopped, and the kings get back to the center, I think that the manoeuver that I mention should be winning. I will have to sit down and analyze this in detail. I'm just guessing from what I'm seeing at first sight.

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #11

    Remellion

    Staring at it quickly, 1. Kf2 Ke7 2. Ke3 Kd6 is correct. 3. Ke4 looks right too, and here we consider the game with 3...a6 and now what is white to do? White's king can almost not get back in time (almost) so 4. f5? is certainly wrong. Black doesn't have to play ...b5 axb5 a5 immediately, he can wait for white to misstep with his king. We're assuming best play (whatever that is) right? Typing as I think...

    4. a5!? idea is to double the a-pawns and win by marching the king over; black will lose if he tries ...Ke4-f3. But 4...b5! 5. Ke3 Kd5 and black can try breaking via ...b4, but here it's certain white isn't playing for a win unless black screws up. The ...b4 break looks interesting and I'll look into it later maybe.

    4. Ke3 Kd5 doesn't look like white is getting anywhere. True, black won't play his king recklessly to f3 (it loses by a tempo) but it still looks drawn.

    Black doesn't have to try for a win, in which case white has nothing as he can't go through the centre. For instance 3...a5 and a draw can be agreed... although black always can try ...b5 whenever white gets too excited with f5.

    tl;dr I'm guessing at first sight it's a draw, and black has the winning chances more so than white, since outside passer > central passer usually.


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