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How should I have ended this?


  • 13 months ago · Quote · #1

    Roihu

     



    I decided to end this game in a draw since I knew I was gonna screw up somewhere along the line (as shown by a bishop and a rook sacrificed for nothing throughout the game), but I'm curious: How would I have effectively finished a game like this? I have no experience in a queen v. queen endgame.

    Let's ignore the glaring mistakes on both sides.

  • 13 months ago · Quote · #2

    Rubidium

    White should try to transpose to a pawn endgame. Qe4 is the main threat. Look for forking checks.

  • 13 months ago · Quote · #3

    Irontiger

    The main idea in queen endgames is to make the king safe to be able to make the pawns go forward. Q + 1 pawn vs. Q is incredibly difficult, precisely because of the many checks the defense has.

    Yet, here my plan would be to bring the king around b2 where he has more or less a pawn shield and to push the f pawn. 

     

    As Rudbidium pointed out, if you can trade the queens even at the cost of a pawn you win easily. So if you manage to make the king safe without losing a pawn, he cannot stop the f pawn without trading his queen for yours.

  • 13 months ago · Quote · #4

    Irontiger

    Ekstein wrote:

    qe4 will work and white can easily win with pawns!

    Yes, but it is Black to play after 39.Qxf4. He can try 39...Qa4 for example, which probably picks a pawn.

  • 12 months ago · Quote · #5

    bishop987

    Qe4 wins.

    You could've just kept on checking him until you force a trade of queens.

  • 12 months ago · Quote · #6

    Irontiger

    bishop987 wrote:

    Qe4 wins.

    You could've just kept on checking him until you force a trade of queens.

    At the risk of repeating myself : queen endgames are incredibly hard, much harder than rook endgames for example. If you are playing someone with good tactical skill, I can guarantee you won't force a trade of queens just by chasing the king around, you just help the opponent for a 50-move rule draw claim.

    No, you need to push the pawns to threaten promotion AND make the king as safe as possible, which is not always obvious.

    The endgame here is indeed probably won, but as Black I probably would keep on playing until queen trade or promotion, even against a very strong player.

  • 12 months ago · Quote · #7

    Irontiger

    joeydvivre wrote:

    I don't agree with much of what irontiger has written there.  I think that ending is very easy to win as white.  The rule is that a 1 pawn advantage in a queen ending is almost always a draw and a 2 pawn advantage is almost always a win.  I doubt that you could construct a position in which there was a 4 pawn advantage that was not a win.  In this case, the white king runs toward the queenside when black checks and find a sanctuary among those pawns and then every time black runs out of checks, you just advance the pawn which is most judicious to advance (i.e., the one that doesn't cause you to lose one).  One winning position to keep in mind is that if you can get either the c-pawn or the f-pawn to the seventh supported by the king, you can give up all the other pawns and have a win.  How hard could that be?

    IronTiger probably doesn't have the 50-move rule down very well.  It's 50 moves without the movement of a pawn or any captures.  That is not a danger here as white will either be advancing his pawns or losing them.  

    You should never agree to a draw in a position because you don't know how to win it.  You should try to win it and if you fail, look up how to win it.  That way you learn something.  It's not really possible to lose this game as white.  

    I agree this is most probably won. But the structure is spoiled and there is a big chance Black could pick one or two pawns by the time White's king finds shelter on the queenside, which is the reason why it does not appear such an obvious win to me.

    I know the 50-move rule is without pawn moving or any capturing ; but if, as suggested in post #7, you keep checking the king with the queen, you could run into it. If you check 30 times, end with a misplaced queen, move it, Black to play has "only" to check 20 (or 19) times to get a not-so-deserved draw. This was merely an answer to that post.

     

    I totally agree on the fact that even without knowing how to play this, you should at least try it. White has here absolutely no danger of losing (if not on clock). Even without the a and f pawns, with only the doubled on the c file, I would play it until it was "really" drawn.

     

    As for the queen endgames odds : indeed, two pawns up queen endgames are almost all theoretically won. But winning them is another matter. The same goes for most Q+p vs Q positions, that, although they are won, aren't won easily (EDIT after post #11 : that bad phrasing means that the won Q+p vs. Q positions are not all easy, not that many Q+p vs Q are won). I didn't read Reuben Fine's book, but I own Villeneuve's  Les finales (Endgames) which is the reference in French, and queen endgames are by far the most difficult of all (although approximatively 100 pages are about rook endgames !).


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