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I thought I could win this


  • 19 months ago · Quote · #1

    humans1981

    Hi,

    I cannot believe I draw this endgame, so please tell me my mistakes and how i could avoid them in future.
    Okay it was a 5 minute Blitz game, 3 minutes wasn´t possible because of internet connection ;)

    I can´t believe that this pawnconstellation is so weak, so pls explain me how i would have played it for a win.

    Enjoy

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #2

    trysts

    I think 34. c6 wins;)

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #3

    trysts

    Skip that. I didn't see that you have to get your king safe first. So, it's 34. Rb7 which wins, I believe;)

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #4

    humans1981

    I don´t think so, 35.QxRb1#

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #5

    trysts

     There are no queens on the board on move 35.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #6

    jonnin

    35 Re3 to keep his king away seems like a logical step.  Rc8? Re7+, Kf8? d7!? Or Kf6, Rc7.... 

    I think you also win if he plays other than Rc8 but it could be tougher there.   Example Rb8 to threaten mate, h3 to avoid it, and black may try to push the a pawn but he can't stop yours and you are closer...

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #7

    BigDoggProblem

    jonnin wrote:

    35 Re3 to keep his king away seems like a logical step.  Rc8? Re7+, Kf8? d7!? Or Kf6, Rc7.... 

    I think you also win if he plays other than Rc8 but it could be tougher there.   Example Rb8 to threaten mate, h3 to avoid it, and black may try to push the a pawn but he can't stop yours and you are closer...

    The only thing I don't like about Re3 is that white can't trade rooks after ...Re8 because he can't catch the a-pawn. If that's really true, then I prefer Rb7+ as in the game, but followed by Kg1 instead of pushing d7, which was premature.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #8

    BigDoggProblem

    mashanator wrote:

    Am I missing something or is 35. Ra3 not just a simple win?

     



    Is Ra3 Rc8 really a 'leisurely' win? It seems to at least last longer than the other lines you gave.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #9

    jonnin

    BigDoggProblem wrote:
    jonnin wrote:

    35 Re3 to keep his king away seems like a logical step.  Rc8? Re7+, Kf8? d7!? Or Kf6, Rc7.... 

    I think you also win if he plays other than Rc8 but it could be tougher there.   Example Rb8 to threaten mate, h3 to avoid it, and black may try to push the a pawn but he can't stop yours and you are closer...

    The only thing I don't like about Re3 is that white can't trade rooks after ...Re8 because he can't catch the a-pawn. If that's really true, then I prefer Rb7+ as in the game, but followed by Kg1 instead of pushing d7, which was premature.

    Correct, you *have* to play Rf3+ if he does that.  Black has Kg? which is bad for both choices, and Ke6 which allows check and threat on his rook. That leads to go back where he was, looking at a draw maybe there, or he can go to d7 which enables pawn check and you win.  

    so it risks a draw at the worst, and at best, a mistake is a win for you I think.

    Ra3 also leads to a draw if I am not mistaken.  Ke6, Rxa? Kd5 and there is no way to walk the pawns, draw.   Everything else also seems to draw it, the king simply can and will get to the pawns and it is not possible to keep the pawns safe and walk them from here, there is no way.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #10

    Scottrf

    [COMMENT DELETED]
  • 19 months ago · Quote · #11

    woton

    39.  c7, followed by Rb8

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #12

    Scottrf

    woton wrote:

    39.  c7, followed by Rb8

    I looked at that, don't think it quite works (black isn't forced to take the rook), e.g:



  • 19 months ago · Quote · #13

    woton

    I think that 39. d8=Q+  Rxd8   40. Rxg7 has a chance of working (Black will eventually have to worry about kingside connected  pawns).  However, it's a long shot and will take some time.  May not be feasible in a 5 minute game.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #14

    BigDoggProblem

    woton wrote:

    I think that 39. d8=Q+  Rxd8   40. Rxg7 has a chance of working (Black will eventually have to worry about kingside connected  pawns).  However, it's a long shot and will take some time.  May not be feasible in a 5 minute game.

    There are no connected passed pawns after 40...KxP 41.Rg6+ Rd6.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #15

    BigDoggProblem

    Hmm, and since this Rook ending is tricky, we've got to ask why white rushed to trade Queens.

     
    Here, white's Q is strongly supporting the pawns while black's is awkwardly off to the side. White traded Queens with Qb3+? when he could have played simply Rc1! preparing the immediate advance of the pawns.





  • 19 months ago · Quote · #16

    jonnin

    Well I was calling it a draw because I was trying to win with the advanced pawns and they always get munched.   The computer says otherwise and spent all morning to prove that g&h pawns can win it after a long long time.

    Computer says Rb7 is correct.  But then it gets all computery... it says black plays Ke6 (claiming anything else is a loser), giving up the G pawn.  Eventually white's advanced pawns fall when black pushes A pawn too far, and the battle resumes over on G&H.   White grinds black down and wins --- picking off black's last pawn then winning with the G&H.

    The exceptionally dull result for anyone who really wants to watch it:

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #17

    jonnin

    FWIW my computer isn't the strongest out there so it could still be off but I tried for a while to keep black's G pawn and it killed me every time. 

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #18

    BigDoggProblem

    mashanator wrote:
    BigDoggProblem wrote:
    mashanator wrote:

    Am I missing something or is 35. Ra3 not just a simple win?

     



    Is Ra3 Rc8 really a 'leisurely' win? It seems to at least last longer than the other lines you gave.

    This still seems rather simple to me. White can take his time and munch the Kingside pawns, the a-pawn, or just bring his King up to support the pawns. 1. Ra3 Rc8 2. Ra5 and of course again any king move to "win" the c5 pawn will just lose to d7 afterwards, and if 2...Rb8 intending ...Rb5, then I don't see why White can't just play 3. Kg1, because after 3...Rb5 4. Rxb5 axb5 5. Kf2 White's in the square. Am I missing something?

    2...Kd5 is not to 'win' the c5 pawn. It's just to stop c6. At that point, what is the plan for breakthrough? If wK to the e-file, the bR just shuffles from f8 to f7.

    (this line is a bit of a moot point because Rb7+ is apparently stronger, winning the g-pawn immediately.)

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #19

    BigDoggProblem

    mashanator wrote:
    BigDoggProblem wrote:
    mashanator wrote:
    BigDoggProblem wrote:
    mashanator wrote:

    Am I missing something or is 35. Ra3 not just a simple win?

     



    Is Ra3 Rc8 really a 'leisurely' win? It seems to at least last longer than the other lines you gave.

    This still seems rather simple to me. White can take his time and munch the Kingside pawns, the a-pawn, or just bring his King up to support the pawns. 1. Ra3 Rc8 2. Ra5 and of course again any king move to "win" the c5 pawn will just lose to d7 afterwards, and if 2...Rb8 intending ...Rb5, then I don't see why White can't just play 3. Kg1, because after 3...Rb5 4. Rxb5 axb5 5. Kf2 White's in the square. Am I missing something?

    2...Kd5 is not to 'win' the c5 pawn. It's just to stop c6. At that point, what is the plan for breakthrough? If wK to the e-file, the bR just shuffles from f8 to f7.

    (this line is a bit of a moot point because Rb7+ is apparently stronger, winning the g-pawn immediately.)

    Bringing the King up to munch the Kingside pawns seems winning enough to me.

    You can't munch them if black's R remains on the 7th. But the comp points out that you can get the K into g8 with an eventual win, and it also hates my Ra3 Rc8? move, and this line remains a moot point, so I'll just concede that Rc8? loses.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #20

    humans1981

    Thx for your lines, the reason why I traded queens off the move before was i was thinking it is a winning position for me.

    There should be no change in the result for me, if I play this game at 5 minutes or OTB with 2hours. I just simple have no plan what to do in this position.

    So it seems it is not that easy position, with a typical pattern as I thought.

    In the game I looked a few moves into Re3 lines to cut off the other King, but i was afraid of the a-pawn.

    I thought Rb7+ is the mistake as I posted this game and thought Rb6 could be stronger?!?

    So again thx for your analysis and lines.


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