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Queen Endgame with some passers.


  • 2 years ago · Quote · #1

    InfiniteFlash

    This type of endgame is simply beyond engines and their calculation currently, so I don't really bother with them on this type of position. I find this position unclear, though feel like black has some 100 move forced win, but this is just speculation.

    What are your thoughts? This position came up in an analysis of a blitz game of mine. Black should be close to winning obviously (why you may ask? Well, he can perpetual at will, has some material advantage, and appears to be a bit farther advanced with its own respective passer), but since black's king is so exposed, a perpetual may easily happen.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    I have analyzed various lines, but I have found nothing decisive yet for black if white plays properly.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #2

    BorgQueen

    Why do you say that this position is "beyond engines" ???  Seems like a very odd statement to make.  

    IMO, it seems like the position is pretty equal.   Both kings are exposed, white's pawn is actually further advanced than black's, unless black plays e4. The only difference really is that black has an extra pawn, but I am not so sure that will matter with exposed kings and queens on the board... and black's pawns are just as loose as white's.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #3

    waffllemaster

    The biggest equalizing factor in such positions is always king cover.  Both kings looks a bit exposed so just glancing at this I woudln't be so sure anyone has a win.

    That said both sides have passed pawns supported by their queen so in practical play, espcially if the clocks are getting low, there are plenty of chances for both sides.  If the white queen wonders off there's a mate by the way.  Qf6, g6, Qf5, Qh5.  Transitions may favor black as he is the one with 2 passed pawns (transitions as in pawn trades).  To feel comfortable in endgames like this I'd like to have at least an hour on my clock :p

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #4

    SmyslovFan

    Traditionally, queen endings were the positions that engines excelled at the most. The sheer number of possible checks makes it almost impossible for a human to play complex Q endings as well as computers.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #5

    NimzoRoy

    I think in general questions regarding evaluations of chess positions should be accompanied by interactive diagrams, offhand pushing wood around in this position doesn't look like it will come up with any big surprises but why take any chances? It isn't any harder to post interactive diagrams than it is to post static diagrams and if nothing else we might all get a big laff out of someone's sloppy or careless analysis (like mine on way too many occasions)

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #6

    tecnoecuador

    and white winns, 

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #7

    BorgQueen

    e4, Kg5, e3.  Don't understand why Qf7 was played.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #8

    InfiniteFlash

    I think one interesting thing about this position is that after black plays e4, Kg5! is forced for white.

    if instead some natural move like Qe5 for white, then e3 g4 (d6 e2 d7 e1=Q Qxe1 Qf6+ white is mated) Qf2+ Kxh5 g6+ Kg5 Qf8!! Qe4 (black can accept all queen trades here, his passer makes it) Qh6+ Kf6 Qh4+ Ke6 Qf2 Kd7 (otherwise black wins easily with his passer) e2 Qe7+ Kh6 g5+ Kh5 Qh7+ Kxg5 h4+ Kf4 Qh6+ Kf3 (FINALLY) , an amazing continuation where the white king is super safe because many of the pieces blocks the key entry points where white could give perpetual check

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #9

    PIRATCH

    Maybe Black simply has to reach the square of the e-pawn.

    Maybe White can improve!

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #10

    tecnoecuador

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #11

    tecnoecuador

    1 ... Qxc3? 2. Qe6 and the pawn d5 is to strong. 

    2. Kxh5? and black winns.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #12

    PIRATCH

    tecnoecuador wrote:

    1 ... Qxc3? 2. Qe6 and the pawn d5 is too strong. 

    2. Kxh5? and black winns.

    1...Qxc3 2 Qe6 don't know 2...Qd4+ looks like a perpetual check!

    2 Kxh5? Black wins is correct!

    In your line after 9 Ke6 why not playing simply 9...Qxg3?
    If 10 Qd7+ Qg7! and 11 Qd3+ is not possible because of 11...Qg6+ and after exchanging the queens Black simply wins.
    Although after 10 Qe7+ Qg7! 11 Qxc5 Qg6+ 12 Kd7 (only move - otherwise Black exchanges the queens) 12...Qf7+ 13 Kc8 (13 Kc6 Qe6+ 14 Kb5 or 14 Kb7 Qb6+! Black exchanges queens and takes the h-paw while occupying g2 and queening his h-pawn) 13...Qe6+ White cannot avoid the queen exchange - Black should win!

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #13

    KilgoreBass

    21 Hours on a normal Laptop: 0-1
     
  • 2 years ago · Quote · #14

    InfiniteFlash

    after a while of analyzing, black may have a forced win, having to deal with post #15, except the stupid computer doesnt see that 8..Qh6+ 9.Kf4 Qe6+ is much easier to win.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #15

    Zinsch

    tecnoecuador wrote:
    and white winns,

    Are you sure? Black's outside passed pawn on the a-file is quite dangerous. And black can create another one on the f-file. This would leave white with passers on the d- and h-file and black's passer seem a little bit faster.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #16

    PIRATCH

    Randomemory wrote:

    after a while of analyzing, black may have a forced win, having to deal with post #15, except the stupid computer doesnt see that 8..Qh6+ 9.Kf4 Qe6+ is much easier to win.

    Sorry for correcting, but it's still 8...Qh6+ 9 Kg4 Qe6+ (because the White king was on h5)!

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #17

    tecnoecuador

    PIRATCH wrote:
    tecnoecuador wrote:

    1 ... Qxc3? 2. Qe6 and the pawn d5 is too strong. 

    2. Kxh5? and black winns.

    1...Qxc3 2 Qe6 don't know 2...Qd4+ looks like a perpetual check!

    2 Kxh5? Black wins is correct!

    In your line after 9 Ke6 why not playing simply 9...Qxg3?
    If 10 Qd7+ Qg7! and 11 Qd3+ is not possible because of 11...Qg6+ and after exchanging the queens Black simply wins.
    Although after 10 Qe7+ Qg7! 11 Qxc5 Qg6+ 12 Kd7 (only move - otherwise Black exchanges the queens) 12...Qf7+ 13 Kc8 (13 Kc6 Qe6+ 14 Kb5 or 14 Kb7 Qb6+! Black exchanges queens and takes the h-paw while occupying g2 and queening his h-pawn) 13...Qe6+ White cannot avoid the queen exchange - Black should win!

    May the easiest way to show it is, you challange me in "take back" mode, we go in that position and we play it out.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #18

    tecnoecuador

    Randomemory wrote:

    after a while of analyzing, black may have a forced win, having to deal with post #15, except the stupid computer doesnt see that 8..Qh6+ 9.Kf4 Qe6+ is much easier to win.

    have you seen 10.Kf3


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