So, I'm white and I reach the position below, which is a win for white with correct play and a loss for white with incorrect play. The idea is to block the KS pawns so that after there are no more pawn moves black has the move. Now, while this does not require extensive calculation, is there position a matter of sheer calculation, or are there pawn patterns and ideas I should know that would help me find the correct moves?
copy opponents pawn moves ex: h6 h3 g5 g4 etc...
Eek, what a position! You say this is a win for White with correct play (as though you are certain that is the case)...if so, post some vars. I'd like to see it!
Zounds, I am messed with! (but come on, two double-exclam first moves?!--you're getting punctuation-happy).
So what you are saying Gonnosuke is that the only idea you need hear is that of Zugswang, and after working that out you just need to calculate the moves?
NM Tonydal, this position is one of chess.coms very own puzzles, and while it is certainly possible I misunderstood the puzzle, I'd be more than happy if you could provide variations where black wins or draws. After all, the purpose of this post is for me (and others) to try and understand the position. So, not only would I appreciate it if you could find other results, I'd actually encourage it :D.
Perfect! Thank you Gonnosuke. I will look up the Trebuchet position :D
No need to look it up, that pawn and king configuration *is* the Trebuchet position. You can verify quite easily for yourself that whichever side's king has to move loses, as it can no longer defend its pawn.
Gonnosuke, by "patterns" I think the OP meant patterns on how to force zugswang with the kingside pawns, rather than simply recognizing the king/pawn "Trebuchet" pattern on the queenside.
"The idea is to block the KS pawns so that after there are no more pawn moves black has the move. Now, while this does not require extensive calculation, is there position a matter of sheer calculation, or are there pawn patterns and ideas I should know that would help me find the correct moves?"
Yes, that's how I read it also, Suker.
This is correct play if it is Blacks move. White to move plays 1.g4. The wild thing about the position is that White will win because he will queen with check in both best play variations.
Run a computer on it. g4 wins.
Knowing what wins is far less important than knowing why -- and how -- this type of position is won. I'm guessing that the ability to win positions like this OTB would give Class players an advantage over most of the competition.
If you run into the following position a week from now while playing in an OTB tournament, knowing that g4 wins the OP's position isn't going to be very useful.
in your position,f3 wins,right?
Very nice position and very nice further explanation by Gonnosuke. From the OP you need to know what was well explained in the earlier posts. Clearly people use silicon beasts to find answers but never learn why the moves suggested wins. Probably one of the best and most informative posts on chess.com in a long time. Of course it is not as popular as the normal "What's the best opening."
Wow! A thread that actually has useful, accurate information (aside from the usual drivel from tonydal). It almost makes me think that paying $100 is worth it.
This is definitely a practical study. There was something I didn't get in secrets of pawn endings about this exact subject. When I get a chance to post it maybe I can get a better explanation.
i been forced into Zugzwang before .....
Good information
Not to detract from Gonnosuke's excellent analysis, but you don't have to be one of the top players on the site to be able to break this down -- if you read Silman's endgame book through even the Class C section, he covers the Trebuchet concept there. Based on that, you can recognize this pattern and solve both of these problems almost instantly.
It's on my to buy list!
if you read Silman's endgame book through even the Class C section, he covers the Trebuchet concept there. Based on that, you can recognize this pattern and solve both of these problems almost instantly.
Reading the original post, I think the OP already understands the idea behind the Trebuchet but was looking for an answer on how to force zugswang with the kingside pawns, aside from raw calculation.
Does anyone have an answer for that? I certainly can't solve these problems instantly. Yes, I realize that whoever forces zugswang with the kingside pawns will win the game, but how do we do that (asides from calculating every single possibility)? Is there a pattern to this? --> That's what I think the OP was trying to get at.
Both you and Gonnosuke are spot on accurate, but I think you guys are repeating what the OP already knows. Quoting the OP's post below:
"The idea is to block the KS pawns so that after there are no more pawn moves black has the move..." (so he obviously already understands the Trebuchet concept)
"...Now, while this does not require extensive calculation, is there position a matter of sheer calculation, or are there pawn patterns and ideas I should know that would help me find the correct moves?" (that is what he's trying to get at)
I am not sure what SuckerPunch or the OP are saying--the pattern is to block the K-side pawns--you need to see how many pawn moves each side has (calculation)--chess requires some thinking not everything is given by rules. The calculation is understanding the process of blocking the K-side pawns. Someone else obviously did not get it when they gave an incorrect answer to Gonnosuke's example. Knowing how to block the pawns is a necessary step no way around it but it only involves fairly simple counting. What is great about these examples is the whole problem involves only the K-side pawn blockage and no King move calculations which complicate the issue quite a bit.
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