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IncrediBill vs zrylam (with kibitzers)


  • 2 years ago · Quote · #121

    IncrediBill

    As I already anticipated in Post #120 on Page 6,  I think I have no choice but to recapture the Bishop and avenge my Knight.  It seems that @ScarredEyes concurrs with me. 

    Therefore my official move is . . . . 23.gxf3

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #122

    zrylam

    23. ...axb4

    there is method in the madness...

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #123

    John_D

    I think best is to take with Bxb4 since it gives the possibility later to attak the Q of black.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #124

    stubborn_d0nkey

    I like taking with the queen better and then continue by putting pressure on the b pawn (if the queen is supported by a rook, white can play a4 without black being able to take the pawn) this would ultimately stretch out black's defenses (defending the b pawn and preventing the d pawn from advancing) to the point of cracking in (at least one front.)

    It will also give the queen more freedom, defending the d pawn would no longer be her primary concern, a rook could relieve and she could jump in if and when needed

    Taking with the bishop would leave only the d pawn as a concern for black, and white cant really make any progress if only focusing on that. 

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #125

    IncrediBill

    Taking the b4 pawn with either my Queen or Bishop both have pros and cons.  Often times in chess whenever you make a move that creates an advantage in one area, it sometimes creates a weakness in another.

    If I capture the b4-pawn with my Queen, then I open the door for @zrylam to move his Bishop to the h6 square. If I capture the b4-pawn with my Bishop, then I move further away from the centre of the board and towards the corner where I am more restricted  ( I would prefer to keep my Bishop on the a7/e3 diagonal.)

    Fortunately, I do not have to do either.  I am only down a pawn, so I do not necessarily have to immediately recapture.  Also, the b4-pawn is not going anywhere, I can always recapture it on a latter move.

    So for now I think the best thing to do would be to make a positional move and prepare for some future attacks.  So my official move is . . . .  24.Rad1

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #126

    stubborn_d0nkey

    I think you made a mistake, not in not recapturing, but in which rook to move to d1.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #127

    IncrediBill

    stubborn_d0nkey wrote:

    I think you made a mistake, not in not recapturing, but in which rook to move to d1.


     I know.  I debated back and forth over which one.  There were pros and cons on both sides.  I don't want to go into too much detail until @zrylam makes his move, but a little later in the game I will go into my logic behind my choice.

    However, one reason behind my choice was that the a1-Rook was on the same diagonal as @zrylam's Bishop.  If he pushed his pawns up, then my Rook would be under attack and I would have to move it anyway, might as well move it now and save some tempo.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #128

    ScarredEyes

    I personally don't feel as though a mistake has been made. Looking at it, Rfd1 signifies that white wants to control the c file too...where in this, White wants to control the e file. One thing that strikes me is that White probably will never control the c-file - in fact, I bet a tactic's lurking out there to exchange Black's b-rook for White's ac-rook, the better rook, if he put it on the c-file. And you can prob tell the difference.

    I see another advantage...but I think that it might be White's trump card in all of this rook-movement, so I'll keep it quiet for now. Suffice to say, Black will find it hard to hold on to the extra material, and he must know it...one idea might be that it's to remove the possibility of adding another defender of the d-pawn.

    What else was the b4 pawn controling? The a5 square, which is the same diagonal as the BQueen. An odd idea is to push the two b-pawns, and use them as shields and rams while the d7 rook blockades the d pawn. Ra8-Ra4 is in the air, with a follow-up of Qa5...and White's lack of g-pawn, along with the possible sacrifice of an e5-e4 push to deflect the f3-pawn from protecting the g4 square, which the rook can use for checks...

     

    I know I'm jumping at shadows. But a kingside pawn storm + queenside rook + misplaced White pieces (Hard to get to kingside for protecting the king) is screaming at me now, from Black's perspective. White's possible control of the e-file makes that pawn storm so much harder, since the e5-e4 pawn will not be protected well when pushed (light square so bishop can't support, e7 protected to prevent Re7) without an extra tempo.

    Sorry I didn't give an opinion for this move, IncrediBill...just didn't know what to do back then, and I was busy. Good luck. And take my suggestions with a bag of salt Undecided

     

    EDIT: And stubborn_d0nkey...If a4, then bxa4 and White has not enough pieces to attack that weakness if Black simple then plays b3. I think that this is winning for Black, and here's my argument why:

    The queenside rook will protect the base, a4, whilst it will be too costly to attack b3. Not only that, but Black can afford to lose both for the d-pawn, since Black has a pawn majority on the kingside, and to make matters worst, it will be effectively a 2 v 4 pawn-wise. In any case, Black's bishop is going to attack it, and White will lose material trying to get rid of the a-b pawns whilst trying to defend the d pawn. In other words, by playing a4, you'd have given Black with 2 connected passers, far worse than the d pawn that Black blockaded, far easier to defend (since its connected and will take 3 tempi for a rook, or 2 for a queen, to capture uncontested) and in essence far more valuable than White's d pawn.

    If Bxa4 before a4, though...I wouldn't know. Ra8-Rxa4 (or Ra4) will drive away the bishop, and before you know it, White may lose the critical defender that prevents any material to be lost.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #129

    stubborn_d0nkey

    Why did you skip the b file? I feel that is where the a rook should have went eventually, to attack the pawn.

     

    Wait, what are you talking about? I'm pretty sure you misunderstood/misread my post

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #130

    Mainline_Novelty

    @Scarred Eyes : I do beleive Rad1 is a mistake, the efile will never be controlled by White (running into p on e5) and if black tries to exchange rooks on c-file there's just taking and rc1...
  • 2 years ago · Quote · #131

    ScarredEyes

    Sorry, it was late at night...as it always was whenever I look here to make comments. Now it';s just afternoon, so let me look...

    Ok, I fully apologize for being against your argument. I understand now what you were saying, and I wholeheartedly agree with it. It's not a bad plan at all. However, I'm using the analysis board now, since I havent used it yet for my last comment, but since the move has been made, I'm analysing the possible (NOT by any means all, and I might have missed some moves) continuations.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #132

    zrylam

    24. ...f5

    This was the reason behind my last two moves, gaining more space on the dark squares and slowly pressing into White territory. Now it feels like a strategic error on my part but I'm lost for ideas otherwise, and this now gives me various continuations.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #133

    ScarredEyes

    Oh for crying out loud, I spent quite a bit on that blimin' analysis inmy last post... =( Ah well. It was interesting. But now f5...

    If Black was looking for expanding kingside, then I don't see how he's going to erect a formidable pawn chain with that doubled pawn situation. In a way, that doubled pawns is an asset - if Black wants to expand, he may have to disregard king safety, since the Bg7 is blocking the g file...it looks like White's kingside pawns are fine for the moment. However, that's long term, and if White wants to attack, then I'd rather look at White's possible forcing moves. A possibility is 25.f4.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #134

    ScarredEyes

    OH dammit. Here's the PGN, starting position is the position after 24...f5. Can someone -please try to post it? Thank you very much.

    [Date "????.??.??"]
    [Result "*"]
    [FEN "1r1q3k/3r2bp/3P2p1/1pB1pp2/1p6/5P2/P2Q1P1P/3R1RK1 w - - 0 1"]

    1.f4 e4 { The worst thing Black can do it let White solidify the position with fxe5... } ( 1...exf4 2.Qxf4 { White's better off. } ) ( 1...Qf8 { May be an alternative } 2.Rfe1 ( 2.fxe5 Bxe5 3.Rfe1 Bg7 ( 3...Bxd6 { Should be obvious that this is wrong, but I wanna go over something =) } 4.Qd4+ Qg7 5.Bxd6 Qxd4 6.Rxd4 ) 4.Re7 Rbd8 ( 4...Rxe7?? 5.dxe7 Qe8 ( 5...Qf7 6.Qd8+!! Rxd8 7.Rxd8+!! { When up in material, exchange. This move is better than exd8=Q, since it forces exchange with a rook, rather than a Queen. } 7...Qg8 8.Rxg8+ ) 6.Qd8!! ) 5.Rde1 ) 2...Re8 3.Bxb4 Re6 { Position still evenly matched... } ) 2.Bd4 { Only problem is, the Black king is now vulnerable. ...f5 weakened the dark squares...so...I don't know. I think the blue line *might* be the best one for Black, but I'm not going to analyse this much. ...Qf8 followed by Re1 or`Rd1, or ...Bxd4 are two possibilities. Since pieces, not pawns, are now used for defence of Black King, White might find Rc1-Rc7 a possibilityin the future...who knows. }
    *

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #135

    stubborn_d0nkey

    Here you go!

    You seem to have missed (in at least one line) ....Bc6
  • 2 years ago · Quote · #136

    ScarredEyes

    Not a bad call, I didn't see that one...

    2...fxe5 3.Rfe1 Bc3 then at the moment, quick analysis, I can't see any good reply for White. Best situation I managed to get was a Q+R ending with 3 isolated White pawns vs 2Qpawns + 3Kpawns, all connected.

    Down goes the f4 move =( Unless someone can find better.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #137

    IncrediBill

    ScarredEyes wrote:

    OH dammit. Here's the PGN, starting position is the position after 24...f5. Can someone -please try to post it? Thank you very much.

    [Date "????.??.??"]
    [Result "*"]
    [FEN "1r1q3k/3r2bp/3P2p1/1pB1pp2/1p6/5P2/P2Q1P1P/3R1RK1 w - - 0 1"]

    1.f4 e4 { The worst thing Black can do it let White solidify the position with fxe5... } ( 1...exf4 2.Qxf4 { White's better off. } ) ( 1...Qf8 { May be an alternative } 2.Rfe1 ( 2.fxe5 Bxe5 3.Rfe1 Bg7 ( 3...Bxd6 { Should be obvious that this is wrong, but I wanna go over something =) } 4.Qd4+ Qg7 5.Bxd6 Qxd4 6.Rxd4 ) 4.Re7 Rbd8 ( 4...Rxe7?? 5.dxe7 Qe8 ( 5...Qf7 6.Qd8+!! Rxd8 7.Rxd8+!! { When up in material, exchange. This move is better than exd8=Q, since it forces exchange with a rook, rather than a Queen. } 7...Qg8 8.Rxg8+ ) 6.Qd8!! ) 5.Rde1 ) 2...Re8 3.Bxb4 Re6 { Position still evenly matched... } ) 2.Bd4 { Only problem is, the Black king is now vulnerable. ...f5 weakened the dark squares...so...I don't know. I think the blue line *might* be the best one for Black, but I'm not going to analyse this much. ...Qf8 followed by Re1 or`Rd1, or ...Bxd4 are two possibilities. Since pieces, not pawns, are now used for defence of Black King, White might find Rc1-Rc7 a possibilityin the future...who knows. }
    *


     Hello @ScarredEyes,

    Some nice lines you posted.  Thank you @Stubborn_donkey for helping him out with the analysis board.  I am sure that @zrylam is looking them over right now and getting some ideas of his own.

    I anticipated @zrylam's pawn pushing on the 'f' and 'e' files, which is why I moved my a1-Rook away from the line of fire on my previous move.  Now if he plays 25.e4, I won't be caught in the situation where I am forced to move my Rook to safety.  In fact, because my Rook is already safe and sound, if he plays e4, then I can simply capture the e4-pawn with my f-pawn instead of loosing it to his 'discovered' attack.

    So since I now have this 'leisure' moment, instead of pushing my f-pawn up and launching an attack, I think that I would like to continue laying a foundation for some future moves.

    A problem that I see for @zrylam is that by pushing up his f-pawn, (which was protecting his e-pawn) he is now using his Bishop to protect that e-pawn.  If I play 25.Rfe1, then he will have to keep his Bishop where it is to protect that pawn.  If he wants to push that pawn up, then he will be moving it to a square with double coverage and he will end up on the losing side of the exchanges.

    Something tells me that 25.Rfe1 is going to be a real thorne in his side. 

    Any thoughts?

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #138

    Mainline_Novelty

    Hey scarredeyes in your blue line, I think White can go 4.Qd5 Qf6 5.fxe5 Rxe5 6.Rxe5 Qxe5 and the surprising 7.Qa8+!
  • 2 years ago · Quote · #139

    Mainline_Novelty

    I still think 25.f4! is very good, IncrediBill I can't see any reason to reject it so fast...
  • 2 years ago · Quote · #140

    ScarredEyes

    @Incredibill

    I have no problem with 25.Rfe1 since that's both natural, and good move I think - something I'd think instinctively, I guess. I agree with your evaluation of the previous move - now Black has to defend with pieces, not pawns, by playing f5.

    @kid_of_chess

    Forget what I said in the analysis about an actual refutation - there doesnt seem to be any, but OTB Black can set some practical problems. Since I see it as a forced win or a loss of a Bishop for nothing, I would then rather suggest for Black along the blue line, 3.Bxb4 e4?! which opens the diagonal, but stalls the opening of the e-pawn.

    Wherever we look at it though...I think Black really made a mistake with f5. I've played enough fianchettoes to see that the pawn formation has lost it strength...

    Here's the analysis with your suggested line. Rfe1 is a flexible, latent move...who knows, it may be too passive to take advantage of the weak e5 pawn.

     AND just in case it doesnt show up when I press "Submit your comment>>" I'll post PGN too.

    [Date "????.??.??"]
    [Result "*"]
    [FEN "4q2k/3r2bp/3Pr1p1/1p2pp2/1B3P2/8/P2Q1P1P/3RR1K1 w - - 0 1"]
    [White "Incredibill"]
    [Black "zrylam"]
    [Site "Chess.com"]
    [Event "Some random game"]

    1.Kg2 { Just triangulating - I set up the board wrong. } 1...Qf8 2.Kf1 Kg8 3.Kg1 Kh8 4.Qd5 { I moved around to set the board up right. However, as I said, note that the line this came from has already been refuted. } 4...Qf6 { This is principally not good - not only you highlight the weakness caused by the f6-f5 move, but you block the crucial defender - the bishop at g7. Aesthetically not pleasing. } ( 4...Qe8! { This is better IMO - it lines up the Q+R, protects the R, and adds a defender to the e pawn. } 5.fxe5 { And now this is not so good anymore for white because of } 5...Rxe5 { White exchange also works. } ( 5...Bxe5?! { I think this is the right capture, wrong piece, } 6.f4!! { Wins } 6...Bd4+ { Black must do this move to minimise damage. } ( 6...Bg7?? 7.Rxe6 ) 7.Qxd4+ { White's a piece up - Exchange!!! } 7...Kg8 ) 6.Bc3 ( 6.Rxe5 Bxe5 ( 6...Qxe5?? 7.Qa8+ { Same problem as before - checkmate. } ) 7.Re1!! Bxh2+ 8.Kxh2 ) 6...Rxe1+ 7.Rxe1 Qf8 ) 5.fxe5 Rxe5 6.Rxe5 Qxe5 ( 6...Qg5+!! {A practical defense against your line - you forgot this zwischenzug. Boom. } 7.Kf1 Bxe5 8.Qxe5+ Kg8?? ( 8...Rg7 9.Qe8+ Rg8 10.Bc3+ Qf6 11.Bxf6# ) 9.Qe6+!! ) 7.Qa8+
    *


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