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Could black have won this game?

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10th July 2008, 07:59am
#1
by JFercan
Toronto - Canada Colombia
Member Since: Oct 2007
Member Points: 366

Knowing that white is rated at approx 1400 and black at approx 1300 could white have been able to pull a win from this position.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for your help.


10th July 2008, 08:17am
#2
by JFercan
Toronto - Canada Colombia
Member Since: Oct 2007
Member Points: 366
Thanks, that's why accepted the draw.  I know the extra pawn was no help.
10th July 2008, 08:22am
#3
by benws
United States
Member Since: Oct 2007
Member Points: 1219
not in my opinion. as long as white keeps his rook at e5, black's is tied down to the d5 pawn. if black sacrfices the pawn, white will have his own passed pawns. therefore both players would be moving around their kings only.
10th July 2008, 08:27am
#4
by Chiaro2di2luna
Pennsylvania United States
Member Since: Mar 2008
Member Points: 173
It looks like a draw to me.
10th July 2008, 08:40am
#5
by JG27Pyth
NYC United States
Member Since: Mar 2008
Member Points: 191

Accepting the draw was IMO a mistake and would have been a big mistake if he were the lower rated player. At least you didn't lose rating. Rook and pawn endings are VERY tricky. Sure they're usually drawish given perfect play... but higher rated players than you and your opponent make big mistakes in the ending. I honestly think the both of you looked at that ending, didn't quite know how to proceed, and copped out.  You had an advantage. You should have played on. I would absolutely question the ability of anyone rated below FIDE expert to be able to look at that position and call it with any certainty a draw or not. 

I'd love to play black here.


10th July 2008, 09:19am
#6
by sstteevveenn
Wales United Kingdom
Member Since: Dec 2007
Member Points: 917

well i think black is the only one playing for a win, so the answer to your question is imo 'no'.  Unfortunately i dont see how black can make any progress either, but vs a 1400, who knows.  I think i'd have played on for a bit, maybe putting my rook on g5 via d8 and g8.  Probably still drawn, but gives a low rated player a chance to blunder.  If it's a blunder in itself, then I would be reasonably confident I would get away with it, assuming they are chess.com ratings and not otb.  

 

 


10th July 2008, 09:33am
#7
by JFercan
Toronto - Canada Colombia
Member Since: Oct 2007
Member Points: 366

They are online chess ratings.  I have played him many times and he has beat me most of the time.  I do tend to blunder in the ends so I accepted the draw.  Maybe at higher levels Black could have won, but I don't think I would have been able to come out on top.

 

Thank you all for your input.


10th July 2008, 09:38am
#8
by kosmeg
Lamia Greece
Member Since: Apr 2008
Member Points: 148

To me it seems it's a draw.(I'm not sure though)

After 1...a4+ if white goes to 2.Kb4 I would play 2...Ra6 forcing him to reatreat to a3 as 3.Kxb5 is met by the simple 3.Ra8 where black has to reatreat his rook to stop the a pawn and then black could have grabbed the h5 pawn making an outside passed pawn, and 3.Rxd5?? is met by 3...a3 winning the game. After 3.Ka3 Rc6 4.Rxd5?? is met  by 4...Rxc3+ 5.Ka2(Kb2 or Kb4 are met by Rb3+) 5...b4 and I think black can win this endgame. If 4.Kb4 a3 then 5.Kxb5 is met by 5...a2 6.Re1 Rxc3 7. Kb4 Rc2 8.Kb3 Rg2 9.Ra1 Kf5 10.Kb4 (10.Rxa2?? is a clear win  for black) 10...Ke4 11.Kc5 Rb2! 0-1. 5.Kxa3 Rxc3+ 6.Kxb4?? is met by 6...Rf4+ winning the d4 pawn and the game but after 6.Kb2! the game is a draw I think as the d5 pawn will fall.

I did the analysis on  my own so there might be some mistakes.


10th July 2008, 11:20am
#9
by JG27Pyth
NYC United States
Member Since: Mar 2008
Member Points: 191

Update: A quick computer analysis gives this as drawn (the initial evaluation gives black an edge...but it dissipates) -- a few of the variations go pretty deep. (+20 moves) There's room for error to be sure, but you can rest easy knowing that you didn't give anything away. I still think you should have played on a bit if only for psychological reasons: don't let him know you're eager for a draw!  He should have the feeling you want his head in a basket.  

 


10th July 2008, 11:56am
#10
by JFercan
Toronto - Canada Colombia
Member Since: Oct 2007
Member Points: 366
Thanks for the update.  I appreciate it.
10th July 2008, 08:57pm
#11
by NM tonydal
United States
Member Since: Oct 2007
Member Points: 948
I think Black has definite winning chances here.  In the line given by kosmeg, 4... Rc4+ (instead of 4... a3) 5 Kxb5 a3 6 Rxd5 Ra4! 7 Kxa4 a2 he queens his pawn.
11th July 2008, 07:23am
#12
by kosmeg
Lamia Greece
Member Since: Apr 2008
Member Points: 148
I missed the 6...Ra4 line but  isn't it a draw after 4.Kb2 instead of 4.Kb4?
11th July 2008, 08:56am
#13
by drmr4vrmr
baguio Philippines
Member Since: Jul 2008
Member Points: 70
JFercan wrote:

Knowing that white is rated at approx 1400 and black at approx 1300 could white have been able to pull a win from this position.

no. black wins after e1 because the black king will have the critical position.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for your help.


 


11th July 2008, 09:45am
#14
by NM tonydal
United States
Member Since: Oct 2007
Member Points: 948
kosmeg wrote: I missed the 6...Ra4 line but  isn't it a draw after 4.Kb2 instead of 4.Kb4?

 Yep, looks like it (but as long as there are a few tricks left, I'd play on--I mean, in the original position).


14th July 2008, 02:48pm
#15
by kosmeg
Lamia Greece
Member Since: Apr 2008
Member Points: 148
tonydal wrote: kosmeg wrote: I missed the 6...Ra4 line but  isn't it a draw after 4.Kb2 instead of 4.Kb4?

 Yep, looks like it (but as long as there are a few tricks left, I'd play on--I mean, in the original position).


 Sure.


 

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