13016 Players currently online!
Man vs. Machine - good luck!
Turn-based games at any time!
Vote for the best move to win!
Do you have what it takes?
Sharpen your tactical vision!
Get advice and game insights!
Learn from top players & pros!
View millions of master games!
Your virtual chess coach!
Perfect your opening moves!
Test your skills vs. computer!
Find the right private coach!
Can you solve it each day?
Bring it all together!
Beginners, start here!
Make friends & play team games!
News from the world of chess!
Search all Chess.com members!
Find local clubs & events!
Who's the best of your friends?
Read what members are saying!
I lost within the first few moves. I don't feel that I completely understand why, and more importantly, how I could have done better. By move 15 (perhaps even 10?), the game isn't even worth looking at, but I'd really appreciate an in-depth explanation of my strategic errors (or tactical ones, too, if I missed any?). I probably am lacking in my fundamental understanding of the KID, but I'm here to learn!
The point of a move like 7...Nh5 is to prepare the f5 pawn push. In the KID, the entire point of the defense when white closes the center is to immediately press down the king-side, giving up queenside play in the process. If you don't understand this idea behind the KID, you'll get crushed badly. So keep in mind with the KID: Set up the f5 pawn press, march the g and f pawns down the board, bring the queen and other pieces in behind them, and deliver tactical threats and/or checkmate. There are SEVERAL GM game examples of this. Go over them and it becomes much easier to understand than trying to memorize variations.
Believe it or not, I've never attempted to memorize a single line of KID theory. The reason I play it is because I was inspired by how folks like Fischer and Nakamura played it; I've gone through dozens of their games. The problem with doing that is examples like this game: when opponents don't go for typical ideas of castling early, I'm a bit confused as to what to do. On one hand, I might've just never found the master games where black goes for an all-out kingside attack while white reserves the option of escaping with a queenside castle. On the other, there might be a theoretical reason as to why delaying the castle is bad for white, which I don't know. During the game, the delayed castling threw me off--I wasn't confident about pressing on with a kingside pawn storm, considering that the result might leave my king exposed, and result in a position with a few remaining isolated pawns floating far ahead of the king; in other words, I didn't know if I could give some pawns queening potential, considering the fact that rooks on the first rank could then easily pin them to my king.
My apologies. If white looks to castle queenside and plays f3, I guess the better approach would be to play c5 instead of e5. Then if he closes the center with d5, you can look to break it down with e6. I guess the point I was making early is better suited to the standard Nf3 formations where white castled kingside.
White was playing the Saemisch Attack and you were responding like he was playing the classical variation. The Saemisch is a blockading system and not a race variation like the Classical. In general I don't like to play ...e5 against the Saemisch but prefer ....c5. ...c5 could have been played on the 6th move of your game, but it would be gambiting a pawn. The compensation Black gets for the pawn is positional and you need to study and understand it before trying to play it.
No need to appologize, just a misunderstanding. (If I saw anyone play the way I did and call it KID, I would honestly try not to laugh.) Thank you for the responses!
I never considered that f3 committed to the queenside, but it makes quite a bit of sense. That said, reading through your first comment made me realize that I never looked through a database for the starting moves of this particular game! Anyhow, I stumbled across a game where Kasparov masterfully began a kingside attack with his pawns, but stealthily dealt the death blow with a sucker punch from the other side!
I've tried out c5 against the four pawns attack, since it dissolved white's center a bit, and I think I figured out at one point (using the analysis board ) a way to win back the pawn. Perhaps a similar idea would work here?
When black plays ...c5, does black then go for queenside play? My first objection would be that if white decided to close up the center, black's fianchetto'd bishop would then be quite useless; when black does a kingside attack, the bishop can at least reroute to f8 to support the heel of the pawn chain and delay an infiltration. Once again, that might just be in certain variations of the KID, so I very well may be wrong about the bishop's purpose.
Maybe I'll give a crack at answering my own questions after going through more master games... if I can understand them!
I found a game where white decided to castle kingside, despite playing f3. I'll stick my thoughts in the annotations, in case I can shed light on fundamental misunderstandings on my part:
castling k-side is quite normal in the 8. Bd3 variation. The other variation with 8.Qd2/Nge2 involves 0-0-0
Ah, I never noticed that subtlety. (Well, now that I think about it, it doesn't look very subtle!) I assume that the Q+B aim to undermine black's fianchetto'd bishop, wheras the other move order simply gets pieces out of the way for a O-O.
by the way....
The line you chose 7...Nh5 is the old main line but not a bed of roses. 7...c6 is a better option because it opens the c-file for play against white's king. Look up Botvinnik-Tal, World Ch 1960 -- Tal's annotations to that game in his famous match book will be helpful for your understanding.
6...c5 as mentioned is a gambit line that has been very popular and explains the decline in the Saemisch System /5. f3's popularity. Ivanchuk wrote a survey on the theory in New in Chess Yearbook 100.
6...Nc6 with the idea of piece play (eg. ...Rb8/...a6/...b5/...Re8/a late ...e5 in various orders) is another popular option.
Incidentally, it is crazy to play the king's indian without a certain amount of knowledge of variations, because the play is very concrete -- general ideas will often be of no help. (The KID is notorious for one move order slip in the opening already leaving black in a crushed position.)
Question about the following position:
White's move. Why doesn't white play Qd2 there, for ambiguous castling rights? Although black can press on with the f pawn with tempo, can't white play Bf2, preparing to break open a file at black's king with g3?
When Black plays ...c5, White can close the center with d5. Black plays ...e6 , and follows up with ...exd5. White can then either recapture with exd5, or cxd5. If White plays cxd5 and you have a Ben-oni type game where Black's counterplay is on the Queenside. White could play exd5 when Black's play is on the King side. After 1.d4 Nf6 2. c5 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 O-O 6.Be3 c5 white can win a pawn with 7.dxc5 dxc5 8. Qxd8 Rxd8 9.Bxc5 Nc6, but it is generally considered that Black has too much for the pawn so White rarely plays 7.dxc5. I would refer you to Joe Gallagher's book Starting Out: The King's Indian Defense for more details.
Thank you all for kindly pointing out tidbits of the theory. I'll try to get my hands on some of the books/games/etc. mentioned. Yeah, I finally realize my craziness...
I've often heard of references to Benoni transpositions in discussions of KID theory. Should I be learning the Benoni before playing this opening?
in your 2nd diagram, a ...f5-f4 is a horrendous positional mistake. Look at that e4 square, look at the other white squares!
Qd2 with 0-0-0 isn't so good now because of the open c-file
It is certainly helpful to understand Ben-oni ideas and pawn structure, you don't have to study Ben-oni variations.
Another French Fry Please.
by batgirl a few minutes ago
Accuracy of ratings
by jefffalcone a few minutes ago
by Rumo75 7 minutes ago
Where to find rules re tournaments
by Possies 7 minutes ago
Rare Gambit in the Sicilian
by Hadron 7 minutes ago
12/10/2013 - Easterwood-Williams 2004
by Bryan681972 8 minutes ago
by flubdub 10 minutes ago
what do play against 1.e4 d5
by AlphaRed 11 minutes ago
What is your favorite kind of tactic??
by owltuna 11 minutes ago
Holiday Buying Guide
by schack_2 12 minutes ago
Why Join | Chess Topics |
Help & Support |
© 2013 Chess.com
• Chess - English
We are working hard to make Chess.com available in over 70 languages. Check back over the year as we develop the technology to add more, and we will try our best to notify you when your language is ready for translating!