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Do you think White can win this game?


  • 16 months ago · Quote · #1

    duraiy_india

    This game is orginally drawn by agreement. Do you think this game can be won by White? 

    http://www.chess.com/livechess/game.html?id=258455302

  • 16 months ago · Quote · #2

    zborg

    Black (seemingly) has to "mark time" between Ke6 and Kd7.  The b and c pawns are too dangerous.

    39) Kf3  Kf5? leads to 40) c6! bc, 41) b6! and white will win.

    But I suspect that black should at least draw, given his extra pawn.

    At first blush, black should have the "winning chances."  But I haven't found them. You need a stronger player to advise you.  I must be overlooking something.

  • 16 months ago · Quote · #3

    trysts

    I'm not a strong player, but I would take a draw offer in that position.

  • 16 months ago · Quote · #5

    Kens_Mom

    Black should be winning because of his two connected passers in the center and white's weak c pawn.  After a move like 39.Kf3 or Kd3 (white can't really make any progress), black can start rolling his passers starting with 39.e4.  The key idea here is that black's two passed pawns now protect each other: the e pawn is directly defended by the d pawn and the d pawn can never be captured because doing so would allow the e pawn to promote.  Also note that white cannot take advantage of the hole created by the move 39.e4 to infiltrate into black's position because doing so would also allow black's e pawn to promote.

    Black's plan now is to occupy the e5 square, which would allow advancing the d pawn to d4 and then Kd5, attacking white's weak c pawn.  This can be done through simple triangulation since black's king is more mobile than white's king.  Once white's c pawn is gone, the win should be easy for black.

    Edit: Aw crap, I get ninja'd everytime :(

  • 16 months ago · Quote · #7

    zborg

    I thought there was a triangulation involved, but couldn't find it initially.

    Didn't realize the simple fact that black playing d4 or e4, and letting the white king into the e4 or d4 hole, was NOT to white's advantage.  Mea culpa.  My blind spot.

    Glad to see the stronger players quickly sorted it out.

  • 16 months ago · Quote · #8

    duraiy_india

    pfren wrote:

    It's an easy win for Black, in classical fashion: he pushes d5-d4 and then does a little triangulation (Ke7-d7-e6). White cannot do the same to have access to e4 (or c4) and loses. So: 39.Kd3 d4 40.Ke4 (forced) Ke7 41.Kd3 Kd7 42.Kc4(e4) Ke6 winning.


    Hi,

    Eventhough black King reaches D5 after triagulation,  White's C or B pawn will pass and promote. See here.

    Did I oversee something? I dont think Black can win (I never said white will :-) )

    All I see is draw so far.

  • 16 months ago · Quote · #10

    duraiy_india

    trysts wrote:

    I'm not a strong player, but I would take a draw offer in that position.


    Neither me, that's why offered a draw :-)

  • 16 months ago · Quote · #11

    zborg

    The OP needs to reread the above posts.  It's an "easy" (but slightly subtle) win for Black.

    And post #11 gives (yet another) example of why it's so easy for White to lose this endgame.

  • 16 months ago · Quote · #12

    Kens_Mom

    duraiy_india wrote:
    pfren wrote:

    It's an easy win for Black, in classical fashion: he pushes d5-d4 and then does a little triangulation (Ke7-d7-e6). White cannot do the same to have access to e4 (or c4) and loses. So: 39.Kd3 d4 40.Ke4 (forced) Ke7 41.Kd3 Kd7 42.Kc4(e4) Ke6 winning.


    Hi,

    Eventhough black King reaches D5 after triagulation,  White's C or B pawn will pass and promote. See here.

    Did I oversee something? I dont think Black can win (I never said white will :-) )

    All I see is draw so far.


    Just to illustrate pfren's point: 

     

  • 16 months ago · Quote · #13

    duraiy_india

    kborg wrote:

    Black (seemingly) has to "mark time" between Ke6 and Kd7.  The b and c pawns are too dangerous.

    39) Kf3  Kf5? leads to 40) c6! bc, 41) b6! and white will win.

    But I suspect that black should at least draw, given his extra pawn.

    At first blush, black should have the "winning chances."  But I haven't found them. You need a stronger player to advise you.  I must be overlooking something.


     Thanks for your analysis & comments. Atleast one player believes (as like me) white's pawns in B & C is dangeruous.

  • 16 months ago · Quote · #14

    zborg

    White's "b" and "c" pawns only seem dangerous.

    Black "d" and "e" pawns are dangerous, and winning.

    Posts #4 through #8 contain all the answers the OP should need.  Unfortunately, he seems to be stuck at the top of the thread.  Maybe it's a computer glitch.

  • 16 months ago · Quote · #15

    Kens_Mom

    White's b and c pawns means that white has a potential passer on the queens side, but black is able to keep the queens side under surveillance while rolling his own pawns in the center.

    Like pfren said, 44.c6 doesn't work because of black's response 44.bxc6.   Look at the variation in my previous post.

  • 16 months ago · Quote · #16

    BlueKnightShade

    duraiy_india wrote:

    .... Atleast one player believes (as like me) white's pawns in B & C is dangeruous.

    Well, pfren didn't say they weren't dangerous. He just demonstrated how black could win anyway. I think there is a point here, and that is that even if you have a winning position you better not underestimate your opponent's position.

  • 16 months ago · Quote · #17

    duraiy_india

    Kens_Mom wrote:
    duraiy_india wrote:
    pfren wrote:

    It's an easy win for Black, in classical fashion: he pushes d5-d4 and then does a little triangulation (Ke7-d7-e6). White cannot do the same to have access to e4 (or c4) and loses. So: 39.Kd3 d4 40.Ke4 (forced) Ke7 41.Kd3 Kd7 42.Kc4(e4) Ke6 winning.


    Hi,

    Eventhough black King reaches D5 after triagulation,  White's C or B pawn will pass and promote. See here.

    Did I oversee something? I dont think Black can win (I never said white will :-) )

    All I see is draw so far.


    Just to illustrate pfren's point: 

     


     Thanks!

    I got it. No Doubt "Black Wins". Black can catchup andfinish white's B& C.

    While the black's attack is going on the white can't really take the two black pawns int he centre. Eventually one of the black pawn in the centre will get promoted.

  • 16 months ago · Quote · #18

    duraiy_india

    Thanks Everyone for their valuable comments. Certainly I learned few things today!


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