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Dutch defense- check it out.


  • 3 years ago · Quote · #1

    Combinatoric

    Hello Chess Peeps,

    My name is yaKKo911 and I am relatively new to chess.com;  this website is awesome! I decided that I am going to focus more of my attention on analyzing my games.  Will the forum lurkers of chess.com please teach me the ways of the jedi. I am looking forward to hearing your insights regarding this game. May the force be with you!

    -yaKKo911

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #2

    Combinatoric

    I am here to respond to any comments. Please keep the comments informative and refrain from the classic two word comment of good game or whatever.  Thank you; it is important to me that I improve my game those who help me with their insight will be get the favor returned to them if they would like.  

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #3

    wardexe

    You should never have let his pawn advance to d6.  The correct plan was to ockade it with the knight, depriving his pieces of proper squares.  Ready My system by Nimozowitch

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #4

    pellik

    I don't like 14...d5. You have a light square bishop and this move makes it much worse. The passed pawn may not be able to promote, but you have no way of clearing your own pawn from the central light squares. Even after c5 and cxd4 white has a good outpost square on d4 and the bishop still can't dominate the long diagnol. If perhaps you played e5 instead you could fix white's pawns on light squares where your bishop could then be used to target them.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #5

    Combinatoric

    wardexe wrote:

    You should never have let his pawn advance to d6.  The correct plan was to ockade it with the knight, depriving his pieces of proper squares.  Ready My system by Nimozowitch

    Hi Wardexe, My System is sitting on my book shelf right now.  I may go and give it a read! I believe the pawn advance that you are refering to was 19.e6.  Can you tell me the possible lines that you thought I should have pursued.  How would you blockade it with the knight? 

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #6

    Combinatoric

    alexlaw wrote:

    good! dutch is an excellent underrated weapon (as long as you don't stonewall it's fine).

    Yes Sir! The dutch is an under rated weapon.  The stonewall can also be very strong when white plays Nc3 in the opening preventing c4.  I think in this situation the stonewall is the best form of the dutch defense and gives excellent kingside attacking chances as often blacks heavy and minor  pieces are trapped on the queenside.  This is when ...Ne4 for black is also really strong.  

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #7

    Combinatoric

    Pellik, Thank you for your insight.  14...e5 15. d5 maybe next activate the night with 15...Nd7 with plans of maybe ...Nf6 soon.  How would you play the position after 15.d5?  What would be your strategies, your tactical ideas.  Anyone else who sees this post feel free to help analyze this line. 

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #8

    AnthonyCG

    I might have played 5...d5 because after 5...O-O White can try 6.Bxf6 Bxf6 7.e4. This is usually the hardest Dutch to set up because it's really slow. There is also some dangerous gambit but I don't think any White players will know it.

    14...e5 looks good. You can get your knight to c5, double rooks on the f-file, put your bishop on c8 and just attack White.

    Also, I loved the Animaniacs. Laughing

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #9

    pellik

    yaKKo911 wrote:

    Pellik, Thank you for your insight.  14...e5 15. d5 maybe next activate the night with 15...Nd7 with plans of maybe ...Nf6 soon.  How would you play the position after 15.d5?  What would be your strategies, your tactical ideas.  Anyone else who sees this post feel free to help analyze this line. 

    It's a fun position to have but the extra piece means it's not terribly critical what you do exactly. Still it's a fantastic position to talk about color dominance and how to fully utilize a bishop which would apply in other circustances such as if white had two knights or if his own light square bishop were on the board but cut off from the action.

    After ...e5 d5 I would first play a5 to fix the backwords b pawn and keep the a4 pawn on a light square. This also gives you the option to transfer the bishop to the f1-a6 diagnol where it can be really viscous.

    The knight definitely wants to go to d7, but Nf6 is premature as it may be more useful on the queen side. First I would play c6 and cxd5 (Rc8 may need to be in there, too), and see how white recaptures before committing the knight.

    If white recaptures with the c pawn and opens the c file then Nb5 looks like a very good square. The b pawn is still fixed and can't kick the knight there. From b5 the knight dominates the queen side light squares and after Ba6 the knight and bishop coordinate very well. There are many possibilities for these pieces but perhaps the best at a glance seem to come from d3. Bd3 adds pressure to e4 and can probably entice f3, so you may be able to set up tactics down the f file (Nxe4 ideas) or with a timely Qb5+. Or maybe white having to re-secure his king after f3 just wins a few tempos as Kh1 and h3 may become necessary moves later. Bd3 gives you control over c2. Nd3 over c1. Some combination thereof and you can look to dominate the open c file. 

    If white takes exd5 the knight may want to come to f6. The bishop can xray through the c pawn for tactical shots like Nxd5, or it can come back to c8 and set up ideas like Qg5 Bh3. The e pawn is loose and can do some damage to the f pawn if pushed at the right moment.

    Anyway I hope this makes sense. It's very late (I can't sleep), so maybe I sound like a lunatic. I just wanted to show that there are lots of ideas in that position mostly based around dominating the light squares to build tactics or an attack.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #10

    Combinatoric

    AnthonyCG wrote:

    I might have played 5...d5 because after 5...O-O White can try 6.Bxf6 Bxf6 7.e4. This is usually the hardest Dutch to set up because it's really slow. There is also some dangerous gambit but I don't think any White players will know it.

    14...e5 looks good. You can get your knight to c5, double rooks on the f-file, put your bishop on c8 and just attack White.

    Also, I loved the Animaniacs.

    Hello Anthony, 

    So you prefer 5...d5.Correct me if I am wrong but, 5...O-O is played quite often in this position.  Personally I am not a big fan of 5...d5 after c4 from white has been played due to c5 that will usually follow taking away the bishops square on e6 which is where the bishop usually goes in a stonewall.  5...d5 attempts to set up a stonewall but I am not sure if this is the best option at this point.  Black is going to be extremely cramped after c5 and Ne5.  

    After 5...O-O 6. Bxf6 Bxf6 7. e4 then black can simply play 7...fxe4 8.Nxe4 Be7 and the position is equal.  Thats what I meant in my game annotation in which I stated that Bg5 looked dangerous but in reality was not much of a threat at all.  By the way, I do think 5...d5 is playable but I am not a huge fan of the game that will arise. I am sure, as I play a lot of dutch defense games, that 5...O-O is probably the strongest move.   5...h6 is also playable making the bishop decide on his path in the game.

    Thank you for your insight Andrew.  The animaniacs are awesome!  I would like it if you could research that gambit you had mentioned and maybe post a little information about it.  Also, can you please explain why you would place the knight on c5 regarding the 14...e5 variation. 

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #11

    Combinatoric

    Pellik,

    That was a really informative post.  Thank you for being an insomniac and spending time on this position.  It seems games are often won or lost in these types of position depending upon how the line is continued.  I looked over the line you mention and it looks legit.  I will store that to memory and hopefully it will manifest itself in one of my games.  

    I was checking out your page and couldnt help but notice your insane blitz rating.  That is amazing.  Your thought process works extremely quickly.  It takes me a lot more time to analyze a position.  Hopefully with practice this will improve.

    I have another idea in this position that may be of some interest.  Will you let me know what you think of 14...Qf6 attacking.  Skewering d4 and b2.  This move also seems strong.  Maybe stronger than playing a pawn move at all.  What do you think?  You are absolutely right though; since white is down a piece backs options are plentiful.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #12

    AnthonyCG

    yaKKo911 wrote:
    AnthonyCG wrote:

    I might have played 5...d5 because after 5...O-O White can try 6.Bxf6 Bxf6 7.e4. This is usually the hardest Dutch to set up because it's really slow. There is also some dangerous gambit but I don't think any White players will know it.

    14...e5 looks good. You can get your knight to c5, double rooks on the f-file, put your bishop on c8 and just attack White.

    Also, I loved the Animaniacs.

    Hello Anthony, 

    So you prefer 5...d5.Correct me if I am wrong but, 5...O-O is played quite often in this position.  Personally I am not a big fan of 5...d5 after c4 from white has been played due to c5 that will usually follow taking away the bishops square on e6 which is where the bishop usually goes in a stonewall.  5...d5 attempts to set up a stonewall but I am not sure if this is the best option at this point.  Black is going to be extremely cramped after c5 and Ne5.  

    After 5...O-O 6. Bxf6 Bxf6 7. e4 then black can simply play 7...fxe4 8.Nxe4 Be7 and the position is equal.  Thats what I meant in my game annotation in which I stated that Bg5 looked dangerous but in reality was not much of a threat at all.  By the way, I do think 5...d5 is playable but I am not a huge fan of the game that will arise. I am sure, as I play a lot of dutch defense games, that 5...O-O is probably the strongest move.   5...h6 is also playable making the bishop decide on his path in the game.

    Thank you for your insight Andrew.  The animaniacs are awesome!  I would like it if you could research that gambit you had mentioned and maybe post a little information about it.  Also, can you please explain why you would place the knight on c5 regarding the 14...e5 variation. 

    The problem with 4.Bg5 is that if White doesn't take, then there's no point in it being there. It's not really a good move anyway so I figured that by stoping e4 the bishop would be there for no reason. I don't think White ever plays c5 in the stonewall because Black can just play b6 and take the b-file.

    I'm not sure if you need 5...h6 either because if the bishop runs then White is just wasting a turn so he has to take.

    After 14...e5 the knight goes to c5 to stay out of the way of the doubled rooks on the f-file. It can't really do anything over there right now.

    The line I was talking about isn't a gambit. (I was thinking about something else.) It's just annoying:



  • 3 years ago · Quote · #13

    pellik

    yaKKo911 wrote:

    I have another idea in this position that may be of some interest.  Will you let me know what you think of 14...Qf6 attacking.  Skewering d4 and b2.  This move also seems strong.  Maybe stronger than playing a pawn move at all.  What do you think?  You are absolutely right though; since white is down a piece backs options are plentiful.

    Qf6 is definitely the stronger move. I missed it at first glance, but I wasn't really looking for it either. I just wanted to go into detail on utilizing your control over the light squares to explain why d5 was a strategically poor choice. Naturally the point of all that work is to create tactics, so finding and using good tactics trumps the further building ideas.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #14

    TeraHammer

    Nice trap in the end.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #15

    Combinatoric

    TeraHammer wrote:

    Nice trap in the end.

    Thank you TeraHammer.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #16

    wardexe

    yaKKo911 wrote:
    wardexe wrote:

    You should never have let his pawn advance to d6.  The correct plan was to ockade it with the knight, depriving his pieces of proper squares.  Ready My system by Nimozowitch

    Hi Wardexe, My System is sitting on my book shelf right now.  I may go and give it a read! I believe the pawn advance that you are refering to was 19.e6.  Can you tell me the possible lines that you thought I should have pursued.  How would you blockade it with the knight? 




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