Upgrade to Chess.com Premium!

KID gets a Beating


  • 18 months ago · Quote · #1

    Hammerschlag

    ~~~Ok, so I am not doing so well with the KID and I am not sure if it's even a good opening considering the kind of beating I get using it. Anyway, I would like some help on the analysis of this game if anyone cares to help out. I ended up really low on time on this game although it was losing anyway so the time factor did not really messed me up so much this time.

    ~~~

    ~~~

    ~~~So in playing this game and in analyzing it, I did not find any way for me to actually go for the win; it seem there are more and more better players on chess.com every day. BTW, my record for this day was 1 win, 6 loses and 0 draws, nice!; my win was handed to me on a silver platter.

    ~~~

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #2

    Atos

    Sorry this is not a KID, it's a Modern Defence that transposes into something a bit like the Gruenfeld.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #3

    Hammerschlag

    Atos wrote:

    Sorry this is not a KID, it's a Modern Defence that transposes into something a bit like the Gruenfeld.


     Ok, so maybe I'm playing what I think to be the KID wrong; is the Modern D a good defense or usually lead to a slight advantage for White? How was it that I did not even find a little offense the entire game with this particular opening? Did I miss opportunities? I have not play this style of defense as Black much so I don't know if I am missing the points of the defense; maybe I am relying on my tactical training to get me through the game and not really understanding of playing the opening well enough.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #4

    RainbowRising

    EVERY (sound) opening leads to a small advantage for white when it is played correctly.

    Perhaps you should play the correct moves in the KID and you will arrive at the correct position :)

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #5

    Hammerschlag

    RainbowRising wrote:

    EVERY (sound) opening leads to a small advantage for white when it is played correctly.

    Perhaps you should play the correct moves in the KID and you will arrive at the correct position :)


     Well, if what you say is true, then playing the "correct moves in the KID" will still get White the advantage if "played correctly". So that seem not to be the solution in this case; any thoughts on the game and where I might be able to improve. I was told here that posting games where I lose for analysis is better than games I won for analysis.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #6

    RainbowRising

    Well from your original post it sounded like you wanted to play the KID, so you have 2 choices, learn the KID, or learn the above ( looks like a modern, as previously mentioned). If it is the modern you want to learn post back and we can take a look, for it is pointless helping you with the modern if you want to learn the KID.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #7

    Atos

    Hammerschlag wrote:
    Atos wrote:

    Sorry this is not a KID, it's a Modern Defence that transposes into something a bit like the Gruenfeld.


     Ok, so maybe I'm playing what I think to be the KID wrong; is the Modern D a good defense or usually lead to a slight advantage for White? How was it that I did not even find a little offense the entire game with this particular opening? Did I miss opportunities? I have not play this style of defense as Black much so I don't know if I am missing the points of the defense; maybe I am relying on my tactical training to get me through the game and not really understanding of playing the opening well enough.


    Well, I know something about the KID, not much about the Modern so that I am not sure if I can help. I think that the KID is somewhat stronger but the Modern is also quite playable so I wouldn't blame the opening. With the White Bishop on f4 trying to be a nuisance, I would have wanted to play d6 here instead of d5 but that might be a subjective preference. I haven't gone through the whole game yet, will post later if I have some further comments.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #8

    Atos

    [COMMENT DELETED]
  • 18 months ago · Quote · #9

    thekingandi

    GM Raymond Keene played the pirc and the modern quite a bit if i recall, you could look into some of his games

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #10

    Hammerschlag

    RainbowRising wrote:

    Well from your original post it sounded like you wanted to play the KID, so you have 2 choices, learn the KID, or learn the above ( looks like a modern, as previously mentioned). If it is the modern you want to learn post back and we can take a look, for it is pointless helping you with the modern if you want to learn the KID.


     I really don't care what I'm learning as long as I am learning, either the KID or Modern D or whatever; I need a good defense for d4 which is not happening in this game or Nf6, g6, Bg7, 0-0 (KID). More importantly, I need help in this particular game as I am at a lost where I might have improved on the game because I did not see any during or after the game where there was a better move; I am not a computer so I know I miss plenty as have been pointed out on plenty of my previous post. As I have said, people said that if I post games where I actually lost and ask for help in analyzing it, instead of games where I won, that would help me more to get better; well, here's one that I lost so I am hoping I could learn from this one. Thanks.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #11

    redevil_buska

    The best defense is a good offence, Maybe if you don't play the kid or modern and play your game you'll go better

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #12

    NrthrnKnght

    Ok 1st of all KID starts out as black like this Nf6 g6 Bg7 d6 o-o Nbd7 (e5/c5)

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #13

    Atos

    Well, whatever the opening it wasn't the opening to blame here since the Black was a pawn up with a reasonable position. Something went wrong tactically later, although I don't seem to quite find where.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #14

    Hammerschlag

    Atos wrote:

    Well, whatever the opening it wasn't the opening to blame here since the Black was a pawn up with a reasonable position. Something went wrong tactically later, although I don't seem to quite find where.


     Well, at least thanks for trying to look; I think that would make two of us, but I'll keep studying this one. Thanks.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #15

    Deranged

    Do you know what your problem is? You moved the same piece far too often. Let me give you a few examples:

    8. Nb4 was completely unnecessary. You should have done a developing move, such as e6 or Re8.

    13. Be6 was unnecessary, as it blocked your e7 pawn from coming to e6. You should've moved it right back or not at all.

    17. Nxd5 was a bad idea. The knight was well placed, and your queen was doing nothing on the back rank except stopping your rooks from connecting. Better would have been Qxd5.

    19. Rxc1 was a bad move, as you should've let him come to you. You could have done something else like queen up 2 spaces to allow your other rook to take.

    21. Nf6 was a bad move. Your knight was well placed, and your queen was doing nothing. You should have tried something like f6, Qh4, Qf6 or Qb8 instead (quite a few options there).

    22. Nd7 was a terrible move. Your knight was well placed and you moved it to a spot which blocked your own pieces in. It was wrong of you to assume that he would simply take the knight (amateurs try to trade off at every opportunity, but good players do not).

    28. a5 --- you claim there was no choice in this move, but there was so much choice. That would've been a perfect chance to simply sacrifice the weak pawn and attack his kingside with a move like Bh6 (a lot more moves that I haven't thought of).

    32. Qe6 was not a good move. Just because you didn't have an immediate attack, doesn't mean that your opponent was holding all the cards and you had nothing good to do. For example, a move like Qe2 might have turned your luck around.

    34. Qg4 was such a wasteful move. You had so much potential in your attack, but you just ended it all right there. A few moves which you could have tried were: g4, h5, f5, or my personal favourite, Nf6 followed by Ng4.

    I can't be bothered analysing the rest. I know I'm only about 1700 rating, and some of the moves I suggested could have been wrong, but I hope that gives you some sort of insight as to what I might have been thinking. Here are 2 main tricks which should help you:

    1. Never move the same piece twice in the opening, try to connect your rooks ASAP.

    2. Don't take every opportunity to trade pieces, and don't expect your opponent to take you just because you put a knight near his knight.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #16

    paulgottlieb

    I can't say I agree with all of the above: 8...Nb4 looks fine, but you could have followed up a little better. How about something like 10...dxc4 11.Nxc4 Nxf4 12.exf4 Nd5 with a very nice game. 8...Re8 doesn't look as useful. I don't see much chance of your playing e5 very soon.

    After white fumbled a bit (13.Bxc4 looks much better), your game was fine. In fact, by move 20 you seem clearly better. 21...g5!? is a strange but interesting move. 22.fxg5 Qxg5 looks very nice for Black.  22.f5 exf5 23.Qxf5 Bxe5 24.Qxe5 Nf4 is better for White, but I still like the resulting position for Black. Your 21.Nf6 is less exciting, but safe and good. 

    On your move 28, you did have a choice. Losing your a-pawn wasn't that important. What about 28...Bh6. If 29.Qxa7 then Bxf4 and you're doing great. 

    You got too defeatist around move 31. Sure, he's got some pressure, but you've got an extra pawn, a strong Bishop, and a safe King. This is the time to get tough! 31...Qe7 perhaps followed with Ne5 and Rd8 puts up a pretty good fight. If he takes back the pawn, you can take the initiative.

    38....Ne8 was where you lost the game. You still had plenty of chance to live after 38...b5! if 39.Qxb5 or d4, you have 39...Qxa2 siezing that long diagonal.

    You played fine, and your opening was OK. Of course you made some errors--we all do--but you were in the game all the way until move 38. Don't get discouraged--get tougher!

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #17

    RainbowRising

    Looking over the game, the reason for your loss was that your B never got into the game so you were basically playing a piece down.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #18

    Hammerschlag

    Deranged wrote:

    Do you know what your problem is? You moved the same piece far too often. Let me give you a few examples:

    8. Nb4 was completely unnecessary. You should have done a developing move, such as e6 or Re8.

    I actually thought this was fine and I managed to gain the Bishop pair; but I guess that just shows how much I know...

    13. Be6 was unnecessary, as it blocked your e7 pawn from coming to e6. You should've moved it right back or not at all.

    I just felt that the Bishop on f5 was not doing much at all and since I wasn't looking to move the e-pawn, it was ok there for a while. I've seen Magnus (games) where he has the Bishop there and it does not hinder his development. But maybe I should have been looking to play the e-pawn ahead except I did not find any ideas where this was helpful.

    17. Nxd5 was a bad idea. The knight was well placed, and your queen was doing nothing on the back rank except stopping your rooks from connecting. Better would have been Qxd5.

    If Qxd5, I lose the e-pawn; I decided on the Knight capture because of this...

    19. Rxc1 was a bad move, as you should've let him come to you. You could have done something else like queen up 2 spaces to allow your other rook to take.

    There's no guarantee that he would have captured on c8 and he could have doubled up on the c-file which he would end up controlling which I figured to be trouble...

    21. Nf6 was a bad move. Your knight was well placed, and your queen was doing nothing. You should have tried something like f6, Qh4, Qf6 or Qb8 instead (quite a few options there).

    I am not saying the f6 and moving the Queen is a bad idea but I just didn't see any good plans on moving to the squares you mentioned; if you could give me lines, that would really help me a lot because I am very visual when it comes to chess...Doesn't f6 lock the Bishop in?

    22. Nd7 was a terrible move. Your knight was well placed and you moved it to a spot which blocked your own pieces in. It was wrong of you to assume that he would simply take the knight (amateurs try to trade off at every opportunity, but good players do not).

    I actually didn't expect him to capture; I was going to myself or force him to get his Knight out of that strong square which I actually managed since he did move his Knight, but maybe that plan was not the best idea however, it did what I was hoping to do.

    28. a5 --- you claim there was no choice in this move, but there was so much choice. That would've been a perfect chance to simply sacrifice the weak pawn and attack his kingside with a move like Bh6 (a lot more moves that I haven't thought of).

    Hmmm...the idea of falling behind in material did not seem like a good idea to me, especially since I felt he had the better position. Again, I just did not see any ideas that were "much" better. 

    32. Qe6 was not a good move. Just because you didn't have an immediate attack, doesn't mean that your opponent was holding all the cards and you had nothing good to do. For example, a move like Qe2 might have turned your luck around.

    That's interesting (Qe2); although I did looked at all the squares possible for my Queen to move to, I did not see e2 as the "best" square. Again, I am not saying that Qe6 was the absolute best move, but I did not find any "much" better ideas coming from Qe2...

    34. Qg4 was such a wasteful move. You had so much potential in your attack, but you just ended it all right there. A few moves which you could have tried were: g4, h5, f5, or my personal favourite, Nf6 followed by Ng4.

    Nf6? Doesn't this lose to Qxg5? I don't know, it just did not look like a good idea "during" the game...again, maybe if you can show me the lines, I would really appreciate that...

    I can't be bothered analysing the rest. I know I'm only about 1700 rating, and some of the moves I suggested could have been wrong, but I hope that gives you some sort of insight as to what I might have been thinking. Here are 2 main tricks which should help you:

    1. Never move the same piece twice in the opening, try to connect your rooks ASAP.

    2. Don't take every opportunity to trade pieces, and don't expect your opponent to take you just because you put a knight near his knight.


     I think you have some good ideas although it is tough for me to see it without actually seing it because I am not good enough to just see ideas without the pieces on the board or diagram or seeing the lines. I wouldn't mine someone else looking over your ideas and see if they agree. Thanks for taking the time to reply, it is much appreciated.

    As you say, you are only 1800 long (live) but that's much higher than my rating of 1500 so more than likely, you see things better than I do.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #19

    Hammerschlag

    paulgottlieb wrote:

    I can't say I agree with all of the above: 8...Nb4 looks fine, but you could have followed up a little better. How about something like 10...dxc4 11.Nxc4 Nxf4 12.exf4 Nd5 with a very nice game. 8...Re8 doesn't look as useful. I don't see much chance of your playing e5 very soon.

    I am going to look at the line over the board when I get home because I just can't imagine it in my head, so there might have been something there I missed. Thanks...

    After white fumbled a bit (13.Bxc4 looks much better), your game was fine. In fact, by move 20 you seem clearly better. 21...g5!? is a strange but interesting move. 22.fxg5 Qxg5 looks very nice for Black.  22.f5 exf5 23.Qxf5 Bxe5 24.Qxe5 Nf4 is better for White, but I still like the resulting position for Black. Your 21.Nf6 is less exciting, but safe and good. 

    I did see Bxc4 and I thought that it was the better move but my opponent then played Qxc4 although I don't know why exactly although Q takes is not a mistake or even a bad move but it just seemed like not the best move...

    On your move 28, you did have a choice. Losing your a-pawn wasn't that important. What about 28...Bh6. If 29.Qxa7 then Bxf4 and you're doing great. 

    Again, my thinking was that if I lose that pawn, I would be in trouble trying to defend the Queenside advance of my opponent's pawns, which would probably mean giving up a minor piece to stop both pawns, which in turn mean losing the game probably faster than I did...

    You got too defeatist around move 31. Sure, he's got some pressure, but you've got an extra pawn, a strong Bishop, and a safe King. This is the time to get tough! 31...Qe7 perhaps followed with Ne5 and Rd8 puts up a pretty good fight. If he takes back the pawn, you can take the initiative.

    I actually felt I fought as hard as I could during the entire game, until it was out of hand but my opponent just had an answer to everything I did; I just did not feel I had any edge the entire game.

    38....Ne8 was where you lost the game. You still had plenty of chance to live after 38...b5! if 39.Qxb5 or d4, you have 39...Qxa2 siezing that long diagonal.

    Doesn't b5, Nxb5 loses? Qxa2 would then be impossible after the Knight takes on b5 and my opponent has 3 attackers on the f7 pawn/square and I have no other way to get another defender on it...I might be missing things there but that was the idea I was trying to cover with my moves which is why I did not play b5; even though it was attacking the Queen, I didn't feel it address the situation very well.

    You played fine, and your opening was OK. Of course you made some errors--we all do--but you were in the game all the way until move 38. Don't get discouraged--get tougher!


     Thanks for the reply and the ideas and encouragement; it's just tough when you feel like you played well enough to win and not as I don't feel like I made any major mistakes in the game but still had no chance to win it...

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #20

    Hammerschlag

    RainbowRising wrote:

    Looking over the game, the reason for your loss was that your B never got into the game so you were basically playing a piece down.


     Are you talking about the dark squared Bishop on g7?

    Could you please give some examples on how could I have improved my play on that end; I just did not see any way or chance to play that piece any other way during the game. Thanks.


Back to Top

Post your reply: