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Opponent plays weirdest move: Can someone please provide analysis?


  • 19 months ago · Quote · #41

    PedoneMedio

    Randomemory wrote:

    Loek, don't be offended, but I didn't feel like reacting towards your post nor shepi's. There's no specific reason lol. (EDIT: analysis looks alright), but im still confused XD

    Pedrone, I agree that it makes sense, and moving the king out of checks makes sense, so it seems normal, but the issue here is why exactly is it a strong move? Normally, such a waiting move will not change the evaluation of a position so drastically.

    Now, reading my previous posts I think they might seem harsh for the reader, when they were not supposed to be in my intention ("...you move Kh1 if you're good enough a player to understand that...": who the hell do I think I am !?), so I'm sorry if my poor English makes me try to say things with as little words as possible.

     

    The discussion is interesting, and the point I'm trying to make is just related to the idea itself of asking for concrete lines: I think that's the wrong question for a human player, in such a position.

    The engine is just forced to search for moves leading to a position evaluated as better by its algorithm (by half a pawn, in this case), but as a human I see that White is better, owning the open file where his Rooks are doubled, hence hoping to use this and his near promotion passed Pawn to attack in some way, when it is well known that opposite color Bishops favour the attacker.

    So, still as an human player, I'd look for tactics or threats, but since nothing seems to work at the moment, the solution is to maintain the advantage, possibly improving the Pieces' postion (better not moving Pawns without a concrete reason, if it can be avoided). So, what's the only Piece which can be significantly improved? It's the King, whose security is also an high-priority positional element.

    That's why I hope I'd be clearheaded enough during a game to see that Kh1 is the move in that position. The analysis would work by exclusion of non-beneficial moves, showing again how is very often a very good idea to stop the opponent's counterplay before delivering the attack when you're winning and the board is not too crowded: what can Black do after Kh1?

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #42

    Lucidish_Lux

    PedoneMedio wrote:

    The engine is just forced to search for moves leading to a position evaluated as better by its algorithm (by half a pawn, in this case), but as a human I see that White is better, owning the open file where his Rooks are doubled, hence hoping to use this and his near promotion passed Pawn to attack in some way, when it is well known that opposite color Bishops favour the attacker.

    So, still as an human player, I'd look for tactics or threats, but since nothing seems to work at the moment, the solution is to maintain the advantage, possibly improving the Pieces' postion (better not moving Pawns without a concrete reason, if it can be avoided). So, what's the only Piece which can be significantly improved? It's the King, whose security is also an high-priority positional element.

    That's why I hope I'd be clearheaded enough during a game to see that Kh1 is the move in that position. The analysis would work by exclusion of non-beneficial moves, showing again how is very often a very good idea to stop the opponent's counterplay before delivering the attack when you're winning and the board is not too crowded: what can Black do after Kh1?

    I agree with you about how a human should handle the situation in a game. The question I still have about this is: "what did the computer see that made it think Kh1 was better by 0.6 pawns?"

    Certainly getting the king off the open diagonal seems like a good thing to do, but if I was writing an algorithm for a computer, I'd value that at...oh, maybe 0.2 pawns, in general. What did the computer see that made it value this so highly? Could it have thought Kh1 was -that- good of a move if it didn't see some specific line or some specific problem with leaving the king on g1? Even if it improves the position, can it be that there's -no other move- that also improves it by a similar amount?

    Until I have answers to those questions I won't feel like I understand the move or the position. Maybe the answer is that the king is the only piece that needs improvement, and that his safety is also highly valued...but that won't satisfy me yet.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #43

    C-nack

    These are the lines my Shredder gives after 40 minutes, maybe by noticing the differences we'll be ably to tell why.

    Kh1 +1.55; h3 +0.69; R7e2 +0.42

     



  • 19 months ago · Quote · #44

    JBades6310

    great thread buddy, I enjoyed reading it. to me Kh1 looks like a "computer move" - I wonder if he was using an engine Laughing

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #45

    bladezii

    Lucidish_Lux answer casts doubts on wether this is indeed a chess engine program.  Until those questions are answered, I doubt it is an engine.  Other variations might give the evaluation as more than just a mere .2 or .6 of a pawn.  So choosing this path for an engine does not make sense to me.  Unless someone else knows something else, I won't card this as a computer move.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #46

    i_r_n00b

    kh1 definitely seems like a human move. it improves white's flexibility in the position while restricting black's.

    These prophylaxis moves appear quite frequently in games. Other moves/lines, however, are pretty confusing.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #47

    JBades6310

    I disagree i_r_n00b, black has no real immediate threat on the white king, that's why it looks like a "computer move" to me

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #48

    macer75

    I've seen (and played) a lot of moves that are way weirder than that one.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #49

    PedoneMedio

    JBades6310 wrote:

    I disagree i_r_n00b, black has no real immediate threat on the white king, that's why it looks like a "computer move" to me

    Some years ago Kh1 might have been described as a "Karpovian" move. I'm referring to a time when a computer suggested move was not considered worth the time spent to read it.

    Anyway, to each era its own definitions!

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #50

    waffllemaster

    Seems by taking away some checks it makes multiple tactics possible and at least one zugzwang possible.  So... this is what it threatens (below).  I suppose other moves give black a vital tempo to defend everything?  A lot of tactics (for both players) rely on a weak back rank. 

    This is a good place to start at least... to see what a move threatens.



  • 19 months ago · Quote · #51

    waffllemaster

    So after you have an idea of some of the threats, then you look at alternative moves for white and analyze why all those moves aren't as effective.

    I'd spend a few hours (not necessarily all in one day) on it without a computer to get a better feel for the position.  Yeah it's a lot of work but it's a mysterious "best" move :p

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #52

    Intrinsicbarbaro

    shepi13 wrote:
    BloodyJack wrote:
    Randomemory wrote:
     

    This is clearly an indicator even my OPPONENT did not understand Kh1 .

    Do you know how long ago he played that move? Because if you were both moving quickly, then that's just about the most suspicious thing I've ever read.

    I am also suspicious. Looking at the game it appears he found some very strong computer ideas.

    After Randommemory played Rc8??, he continues d6! Rf8 Nxd7! Qxd7 Re7! Qc6 Kh1!! Rcd8 Rc7! Qb5 Qe4! g6 Qf4! Qg5 Qxg5! Bxg5 d7!

    Quite impressive to have found so many only computer moves to gain a winning advantage. Also quite suspicious though, especially if he cannot explain them.

    the move Kh1 looks like a move karpov would play to simply avoid any checks. Maybe he was more worried about limiting your attacking chances, than to attack an attack. The move looks very natural though, i think i've played it frequently just for defensive purposes and my rating is barely 1400.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #53

    Intrinsicbarbaro

    PedoneMedio wrote:
    JBades6310 wrote:

    I disagree i_r_n00b, black has no real immediate threat on the white king, that's why it looks like a "computer move" to me

    Some years ago Kh1 might have been described as a "Karpovian" move. I'm referring to a time when a computer suggested move was not considered worth the time spent to read it.

    Anyway, to each era its own definitions!

    i am a chess novice and as soon as i saw the move i thought of karpov. i like his style, slow but crushing and leaving the opponent hopeless. if we call him and ask him he would give concrete evidence as to why kh1 is the best move.

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #54

    InfiniteFlash

    Update: My opponent bytheway12 has been caught cheating, so it is clearly a computer move.

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #55

    ItsEoin

    Kh1 looks like the type of move I'd love to learn how to play, notwithstanding the fact that your opponent just got caught for cheating. Just nice, quiet, improving everything while not panicking and trying to force matters (practically my MO lately it seems). 

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #56

    VULPES_VULPES

    I usually do it to prevent any checks and avoid the possibilities of pins, skewers, and forks.


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