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Any others with high IQ suck at chess.


  • 3 years ago · #241

    Meadmaker

    Saintpauliana wrote:

    So I think that Chess is very much a "specialty item" which does require a certain type of aptitude, namely those spatial/visual analysis abilities spoken of in the above quote. And those abilities you are born with, you can't learn them. So if you start off trying to learn and progress in Chess and you DO NOT have above average spatial/visual analysis you are not going to get as far as those who do no matter what you do. Period.

     

    I tend to agree with this (and everything else you wrote) but do you have any insight into exactly what "spatial/visual analysis" actually is?  Other than playing Chess, what else could I do well if I had above average spatial/visual analysis capabilities?

  • 3 years ago · #242

    Ziryab

    e4nf3 wrote:

    To Patzerlars: Yes...I now go to Delta Level 2.

    Hey, James...you could qualify for Mensa (maybe you are a member).

    Me? I applied years ago. Rated 3 percentile. What a bummer...missed by 1 percentile.

    The test was taken in the basement of a library with a noisy, rowdy girl scout meeting on the other side of the door, jack hammers going full force outside the windows, no air conditioning in the hot/humid summer... They don't allow for a retest, either. Not for your entire life.

    But, I take full responsibility. If I did not, I'd give myself a Delta Scorn Level 10 rating.

    Congratulations on being shmarter than me by 1 percentile. 

    It always amazed me that an organization that claims to cull only the top intellectually 1) advertises in Reader's Digest, and 2) lacks chapters at major research universities. Reminds me of the Who's Who invitation cards that I feed to my paper shredder.

  • 3 years ago · #243

    Ziryab

    chubbychocobo wrote:

    The ads are the real story.

  • 3 years ago · #244

    e4nf3

    James: It always amazed me that an organization that claims to cull only the top intellectually 1) advertises in Reader's Digest, and 2) lacks chapters at major research universities. Reminds me of the Who's Who invitation cards that I feed to my paper shredder.

    I agree. I applied a long time ago. Since then, I came to realize that it is largely bogus. For example, my wife never studied much math. She'd do poorly on certain IQ tests.

    In my case, the math wouldn't be a problem (except that I am rusty) but those stupid anagrams might be.

  • 3 years ago · #245

    AlCzervik

    chubbychocobo wrote:

    Hey! This might be the organization snakesbelly mentioned in a different thread!

  • 3 years ago · #246

    Meadmaker

    AnthonyCG wrote:?

    Threads like these are made by people wanting to find excuses for their problems rather than wanting to fix them.

    Perhaps your case is different.

    On any given day, some of us might find cognitive psychology more interesting than Chess.

  • 3 years ago · #247

    e4nf3

    I do understand that it does take all kinds of people to make a planet. 

    However, if I severely sucked at chess, I would endeavor to improve. If, because my brain was somehow fried and I couldn't do that, I would give it up. I'd find something more suitable for my id. That's just me, though. 

    Then, there are people who aren't willing to put forth the effort, lose regularly, feel no shame and wonder why they lose because they consider themselves as having a superior intellect. Quite an enigma, I suppose.

  • 3 years ago · #248

    Meadmaker

    If I found something that was an enigma, I might be the kind to investigate it until I understood it.Wink

     

    In all seriousness, I do find that losing doesn't cause me much humiliation, unless I feel like I simply blundered a game I should have won.  I enjoy playing Chess, but the fact that there are people better than me doesn't bother me in the least.  I claimed early on to have blood lust, but perhaps it's a much more limited form than others have.  During a competition, whether Chess, or martial arts, or a math test, I can be quite intense, but winning doesn't make me elated, and losing doesn't make me depressed or humiliated.  If I enjoy the competition, I generally enjoy the activity, not necessarily the outcome.

     (ETA: The remainder of this post is a summary of a psychology PhD dissertation.  If you find that sort of thing tedious, do not read on.)

             I ran across an interesting paper (I'll edit this post later and put in a link) that was a PhD dissertation that presented a model of Chess performance.  I've only skimmed it but I'll give an extremely simplified version of his model.  He basically asserts that during deliberate practice, templates, which are patterns related to board positions, are stored in long term memory.  Each template is associated with a production rule (basically a rule of "when this pattern exists->do that")  During play, these patterns are retrieved, and the move is made according to the rule.

    The long term memory templates are only stored in a retrievable form during deep study, not casual play.  (Obviously, an oversimplification there, but internet blitz chess would indeed be practically useless if he's right.)   Experts have a large number of templates stored as a consequence of doing lots of deliberate practice.

    This fits with a lot of what people have said here.  Chess requires a "good memory", but it's a specific sort of memory.  The analytical, mathematical style of thinking is only used when there aren't any templates that match, which means it is of little use, so people with high IQs don't have a great deal of an advantage.  The commonality with face recognition may also fit here.  Recognizing a face is not a conscious process, when done well.   Similarly, masters don't consciously recognize good moves, they just see them, because a template matches. 

     

    If the guy is right, it explains the loose correlation between IQ and Chess ability, and the strong dependence on intense practice among even gifted individuals.   One thing I wonder about though is how his model deals with child prodigies.  Ruifeng Li is currently the highest ranked 10 year old in the US.  By coincidence, his first rated tournament was also my son's first rated tournament.  Ruifeng was a normal 5 year old.  He had played Chess, but didn't have a coach.  His dad was a reasonable club player, but there were plenty in the club better.  In other words, Ruifeng did not put in a lot of "deliberate practice" at that time of his life.  However, at the end of that tournament, Ruifeng had a rating of over 1000.  It seems to me that inborn ability, natural talent, must somehow be at work there.

     

    Also, his model does bode ill for anyone who took up Chess after our 40th birthday.  That sort of long term memory formation is really much more difficult later in life. If his model is correct, learning Chess could still be done later in life, but anyone attempting it must be prepared to work a lot harder than the teenager at the next table.

  • 3 years ago · #249

    Ziryab

    I took up chess at eight, was terrible until I read a chess book at 15, did not play in my 20s, played my first rated chess tournament at 35 (rating 1250). At 36 I was a C class player. At 45 I crossed over 1600. At 49 I

    became an A class player. I expect to make expert before age 54 and master by 60.

    You are never too old to learn, but good diet and physical exercise becomes more important element of chess training with each passing year.

  • 3 years ago · #250

    e4nf3

    I'm glad you shared that, James. You have demonstrated that becoming a good chess player is not based on instant gratification.

    I played as a teen and sporadically to age 25. I didn't have a rating but was good enough to beat anyone at work on chess ladders or in the neighborhood. Probably not better than 1400...which isn't too shabby for casual play.

    Had a 40 year absence but over the last couple of years, I've been studying and practicng and playing against engines or acquantances to where I am B. My goal is A, and I believe I'll get there in a year or so. 

    Takes effort. Takes patience. Takes a willingness to trudge through plateaus and eventually bust to the upside, hit another plateau and repeat. That's if you want to reach a goal.

    No...this age thing is more excuses. I will say that advanced age doesn't help. But guys in their 40ies or 50ies who think they are too old to think well enough...even my 61-year old buddy, cabby...they make me laugh. Can't break through maybe 1200 because of age, spatial deficiency, hernias, etc.

    Of course, chess really isn't for everyone. Some of these guys should just take up knitting. (lol)

  • 3 years ago · #251

    bolshevikhellraiser

    Top level old men are very uncommon. How many old men made it to be world champion? I can only think of Steinitz and Alekhine.

  • 3 years ago · #252

    Meadmaker

    The model says that Chess improvement requires large amounts of information be committed to long term memory.  If that model is correct, then Chess improvement, especially for people with no previous Chess history, would be slower among older players.

    That doesn't mean that anyone is too old to improve.  It just means that older players would have to work harder for the same level of improvement.

     

    And of course, the model hasn't been confirmed.  It was good enough for one guy to get a PhD, but that's hardly the same thing as being the consensus of the scientific community.

  • 3 years ago · #253

    The_Gavinator

    Lol are you really complaining about your 1800+ rating? Most people on here are U1400, for some reason this site doesn't have a very strong playerbase (like myself). I do decent on here, then I go to chesscube and lose the majority of my games. Don't complain about your rating, you are better than most people on here.

  • 3 years ago · #254

    cabadenwurt

    [COMMENT DELETED]
  • 3 years ago · #255

    kgwkyle

    Is this even on subject anymore? lol

  • 3 years ago · #256

    The_Gavinator

    Idk, I was replying to OP, I thought that's the point of forums...

  • 3 years ago · #257

    e4nf3

    bolshevikhellraiser wrote:

    Top level old men are very uncommon. How many old men made it to be world champion? I can only think of Steinitz and Alekhine.

    I can't recall any octogenarian world champs. But, that's not what we are talking about.

    There are guys blaming old age (40?, 50? 61?...yeah, especially him) on their not being able to break 1200. See?

  • 3 years ago · #258

    e4nf3

    I caught that, cabby. Nice try.

    I knew I'd bait you out of your Jack-in-the-box.

    Glad you are enjoying your lurking. (lol)

  • 3 years ago · #259

    e4nf3

    The_Gavinator wrote:

    Idk, I was replying to OP, I thought that's the point of forums...

    Yeah, the OP really has a problem. Only 1800+ at bullet. What a wuss. Wink

    ***Most people on here are U1400, for some reason this site doesn't have a very strong playerbase (like myself). ***

    Like yourself? Arf...arf!

  • 3 years ago · #260

    The_Gavinator

    Umm yeah I'm not a very good chess player I'll admit it. My USCF is only like 1200, I'm not awful but in the world of chess players, I'm not very great. Most people on here are in the 1200-1400 area, or even under (like you) if you haven't noticed. I was just putting it in perspective, that having a 1800 rating on this site full of U1400's means he is probably pretty good.

    Also, imo bullet takes more skill because it not only requires you to think, it requires you to think fast. It also is fun because of the time factor too.


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