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  • 5 months ago · Quote · #1

    JohnWZiegler

    In Fred Reinfeld's 1950's 'Complete Chess Course' he gives this line in the Italian Game as a definite win for White. Were the computer moves that I tacked on faulty... or how does White win after material is exchanged and it's Q and piece vs. 2 Rooks and piece?

    I guess it's not terribly important... but it just makes me want to know what I'm missing, if there is a clear-cut answer...

    Thanks!

  • 5 months ago · Quote · #2

    JohnWZiegler

    (the same hasty computer check I did yielded a draw...)

  • 4 months ago · Quote · #3

    Dakota11599

    what is this

  • 4 months ago · Quote · #4

    chessmicky

    After 13....Rc8 White gets a winning position with 14.Bxc6+ bxc6 15.Ne5 but 13....Qb8 looks tougher to crack. But I'm not so sure that 13.Qa4 is White's best. 13.Qc2 threatening Bxc6+ looks pretty decent. if 13...Qd7 14.Ne5 White seems to be doing OK.

    No sane grandmaster plays this way with black, so there aren't many examples

  • 4 months ago · Quote · #5

    AKAL1

    The real test of this line is Bxc3 d5 Ne5 though.

  • 4 months ago · Quote · #6

    chessmicky

    Sure, no one good actually plays Nxc3, but it's interesting to check out why not. These old, obsolete lines can  still teach us a lot about tactics and the value of rapid development

  • 4 months ago · Quote · #7

    blueemu

    I thought the mainline was 10. Qb3 (not 10. Ba3)?

  • 4 months ago · Quote · #8

    chessmicky

    It's hard to talk about a "mainline" in a line that hasn't been played at the top level for a century or more! But in the chessbase online database 10.Qb3 was played 218 times, scoring 75% and 10.Ba3 was played 171 times scoring 70%

  • 4 months ago · Quote · #9

    JohnWZiegler

    Chessmicky, thanks! I didn't think I was going to get any comments at all. I didn't realize the line was totally obsolete, but that wasn't really the issue; I just figured if Reinfeld pronounced something as definitely winning, there must be a definite continuation, and I wasn't sure what it was. 

  • 4 months ago · Quote · #10

    AKAL1

    blueemu wrote:

    I thought the mainline was 10. Qb3 (not 10. Ba3)?

    It is, but Ba3 is better. Qb3 d5! Bxd5 0-0 and the position is equal

  • 4 months ago · Quote · #11

    Mainline_Novelty

    AKAL1 wrote:

    The real test of this line is Bxc3 d5 Ne5 though.

    Bf6 is more accurate and simply better for Black

  • 4 months ago · Quote · #12

    AKAL1

    It's a matter of opinion, but it's easier to show White has absolutely nothing after Ne5

  • 4 months ago · Quote · #13

    bangalore2

    I like Black in the resulting endgame, and I think that the Queen comes to d6. I don't see why nobody plays Black here...

  • 4 months ago · Quote · #14

    AKAL1

    Because no one plays White there..

  • 4 months ago · Quote · #15

    chessmicky

    AKAL1 wrote:

    Because no one plays White there..

    Asolutely right! Gms would be lining up to play the black side of this line

  • 4 months ago · Quote · #16

    chessmicky

    AKAL1 wrote:

    Because no one plays White there..

    Asolutely right! Gms would be lining up to play the black side of this line

  • 4 months ago · Quote · #17

    JohnWZiegler

    chessmicky, do you know of any way for White to win if Black did 13...Qb8, or was Reinfeld wrong?

  • 4 months ago · Quote · #18

    bangalore2

    Just a guess:

    RxB PxR

    Ne5, but it looks drawish.

  • 4 months ago · Quote · #19

    chessmicky

    I'm feeling lazy, so I put the position after 13...Qb8 on my computer. It shows a definite advantage for White, about half a pawn, after 14.Rxe6+ fxe6 15.Ne5, which bangalore2 just pointed out. 

    Reinfeld was probably quoting some older master analysis, since this line had pretty much disappeared from grandmaster play even when Reindeld was writing. His general point--that Black's line of play is not very smart--seems to be valid, but he didn't get every detail right.

  • 4 months ago · Quote · #20

    JohnWZiegler

    Thanks, I feel better knowing that! It wasn't that I needed to understand it because I thought it would happen in games, I just wanted to understand the concepts...


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