I've had this discussion before, but never came to a clear conclusion.  So here's my question:

If both white and black were played perfectly (by God, for instance), who would win, or would there be a draw?  Most people think that either white would win or that it would be a draw.  Maybe black has some sort of advantage in being able to be the first to counter white?  I already know that we lack the data to know the answer for sure, but does anyone have any opinions?

If the game were played perfectly, then it would be a draw.  The only way anyone ever gets checkmated is if they make a mistake.  We dont lack the data we lack the perfect player.  Theorem:  For every possible white attack, there is a way for black to draw.  Therefore white cannot win with perfect play.  Theorem:  White is not in Zugzwang in the initial position.  Therefore black cannot win with perfect play.  If white cannot win and black cannot win, then the game would be a draw.

If two perfect computers of equal strength played eachother, white should win because of the tempo on the first move. However, the question is, could even a perfect computer be able to turn that tempo advantage into a win against another perfect computer?

yeah, I think ghostofmaroczy is correct.  No matter what white does, black has a counter move, and vise versa.

Chess hasn't been solved yet, so it's still unclear if it's a win or a draw. So either TraglorfBob or ghostofmaroczy is wrong, but it's not clear who is wrong. It is clear that for now both are wrong, since you can't say it's a win or a draw, because we just don't know yet.

White may be able to get into a position where that extra tempo can win the game. Either way, there's no way of telling for sure right now.

Logically for me, it will be a draw.

i believe that the 1/2 move would carry white to a win. there is NO way that black has a chance to win - there is NOTHING hidden about chess :)

It is not that simple. white objective in the opening stage is to get a better position or some kind of strategical advantage. Black would try to keep equality. What if white gets some small advantage (let's say +=)? Does that mean that black has made a mistake? In the opposite, if black reached an equal position after the opening, Has white made a mistake?

The middle-game will rely on the opening, and if the situation is still equal, then there are no magic moves to play. Both players would need to go ahead with a plan, and assuming that there are no errors, they could choose among several plans. Some of them would be good (but not good enough) and just few plans would be excellent.

Take a look at high level correspondence chess games, there are no errors there, just strongest moves than others. And who plays more good but not strong enough moves, loses. 

My boards red and yellow so what the hell are you all taking about?

 

Actually their is no such thing as the perfect computer.Big Blue has been beaten a few times by mere mortals(well grand masters). it all depends on the quality of the players. if evenly matched 50 -50.

I think White would would have the best chance to win if both sides played perfect because it moves first, and to have an extra one move in chess is a lot. But the game would probably end in a draw because there would always be a correct defensive response. I hope someday we develop a "perfect" chess computer.

I think it would probably end with white winning. The game does not exactly start out evenly. White is given the important advantage of the first move.

blacman wrote: I think it would probably end with white winning. The game does not exactly start out evenly. White is given the important advantage of the first move.

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Interesting, but is the advantage enough?  Sometimes, with pawns and bishops of opposite color, one side may have an "advantage," having more pawns, yet the game is a draw.  Maybe white's advantage is that it has to play less perfectly for equality, and that it can more easily capitalize on black's mistakes..but that that advantage is neutralized if black plays perfectly?  I guess we'll never really know...

blacman wrote: I think it would probably end with white winning. The game does not exactly start out evenly. White is given the important advantage of the first move.

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 But maybe there is an equalizing move for black in each of white possible games?

Well, the argument can't be solved definitively until a supercomputer "solves" chess. And seeing as it took twenty years to "solve" checkers, we could be in for a long wait.

 But on topic, I think white will win. I am a strong believer in the importance of defense, and I myself prefer playing black, but I think that if playing perfectly, white can turn his tempo advantage into a win. A perfect attack beats a perfect defense, in my opinion. It's kind of like the unstoppable force meeting an immovable object.

Draw. It would most probably be a draw cause if both perfect computers played against each other, when white plays agood move black would play an equally good move to counter it. Similarily, if Black played a good move the white would play an equally good move to counter it. So with all this countering it has to become a draw at the end. Do u get what im saying? 

My vote goes for the draw.

Well, the argument can't be solved definitively until a supercomputer "solves" chess. And seeing as it took twenty years to "solve" checkers, we could be in for a long wait.

 But on topic, I think white will win. I am a strong believer in the importance of defense, and I myself prefer playing black, but I think that if playing perfectly, white can turn his tempo advantage into a win. A perfect attack beats a perfect defense, in my opinion. It's kind of like the unstoppable force meeting an immovable object.

If black has a perfect defence then there is no such thing as a perfect attack as white can not get pass the defence without taking heavy losses.which means white is sacrificing. not such a perfect attack.

Maybe the game would never end, too? As white would never see the moment for the successful attack, and would keep moving pieces behind the line, and black doing the same?