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Time manipulation


  • 19 months ago · Quote · #41

    FirebrandX

    Also keep in mind this is online blitz, not OTB blitz. They are handled differently for a reason. OTB doesn't have rules concerning disconnect, so making any comparisons to OTB rules is "unfair" in itself. You don't have touch-move rules in online play either.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #42

    Polar_Bear

    @LongIslandMark

    I understand. But if disconnection happens, it is *absolute necessary* to use the player's clock as 100% valid reference and correct the thinking time on the server, not opposite.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #43

    LongIslandMark

    @Polar_Bear - No, I would think the clock on the server would rule. I have seen myself, on one occasion, where I had 2+ minutes in a blitz game, then all of a sudden the opponents move appeared and I had 30 seconds left. That is an error in the server. Best you can do is report it. Since so many people are using it, it is the sort of thing that gets fixed quickly. Was that like what you were seeing?

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #44

    Polar_Bear

    FirebrandX wrote:

    Also keep in mind this is online blitz, not OTB blitz. They are handled differently for a reason. OTB doesn't have rules concerning disconnect, so making any comparisons to OTB rules is "unfair" in itself. You don't have touch-move rules in online play either.

    OTB chess has clear rules when the player's clocks can be switched on. It is after the opponent's move has been made. Switching on the clocks without making the move is against the rules and it is usually penalized by bonus time for the player or by game loss for the opponent if done repeatedly.

    Also I would expect internet live chess obey the same or very similar rules.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #45

    Polar_Bear

    LongIslandMark wrote:

    @Polar_Bear - No, I would think the clock on the server would rule. I have seen myself, on one occasion, where I had 2+ minutes in a blitz game, then all of a sudden the opponents move appeared and I had 30 seconds left. That is an error in the server. Best you can do is report it. Since so many people are using it, it is the sort of thing that gets fixed quickly. Was that like what you were seeing?

    Server's clock should rule only if server used some verification in communication with player's browser that move has been delivered and player actually sees it. I guess this would be tougher a bit to make than leave player's clock rule.

    The situation you described - subtracting time from your clock for no reason - it is indeed "the bug" we discuss in this topic all the time. It is just bad procedure chess.com uses to handle your alleged disconnection.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #46

    LongIslandMark

    Polar_Bear wrote:
    LongIslandMark wrote:

    @Polar_Bear - No, I would think the clock on the server would rule. I have seen myself, on one occasion, where I had 2+ minutes in a blitz game, then all of a sudden the opponents move appeared and I had 30 seconds left. That is an error in the server. Best you can do is report it. Since so many people are using it, it is the sort of thing that gets fixed quickly. Was that like what you were seeing?

    Server's clock should rule only if server used some verification in communication with player's browser that move has been delivered and player actually sees it. I guess this would be tougher a bit to make than leave player's clock rule.

    The situation you described - subtracting time from your clock for no reason - it is indeed "the bug" we discuss in this topic all the time. It is just bad procedure chess.com uses to handle your alleged disconnection.

    I have no idea if my opponent got a "disconnected" message - for me just a surprise 2 minutes gone. With one occurance in 400+ games, I'm not going to get worked up about it.

    I suspect the time each player sees on their device (PC, etc.) is an artifact - not what the server thinks is happening and the server tries hard to make everyone see the same thing (more or less).

    For security, I think the server has to rule. Otherwise bad programmers could mislead the server. 

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #47

    Irontiger

    @PolarBear : we all agree it seems unfair to have one's clock running without thinking of the move. The question is, how do we correct this without allowing time manipulation ?

    Basically, I guess the way the sever handles the games now is : player A sends a move to the server, which then stops A's clock, sends it to player B and simultaneously start his clock (plus lag compensation tricks).

    Your proposition, if I understand well, would be that when the server sends the move to player B, and also sends a request "can I start the clock now ?" and starts the clock when player B's computer answered "yes".

    In that case, I cannot see what would prevent B, with sufficient computer science knowledge, to create a script that he runs when playing, that has as an effect to display the move but not to answer the "clock starting" request before some time - thus creating a time cheat.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #48

    Polar_Bear

    Irontiger wrote:

    @PolarBear : we all agree it seems unfair to have one's clock running without thinking of the move. The question is, how do we correct this without allowing time manipulation ?

    Basically, I guess the way the sever handles the games now is : player A sends a move to the server, which then stops A's clock, sends it to player B and simultaneously start his clock (plus lag compensation tricks).

    Your proposition, if I understand well, would be that when the server sends the move to player B, and also sends a request "can I start the clock now ?" and starts the clock when player B's computer answered "yes".

    In that case, I cannot see what would prevent B, with sufficient computer science knowledge, to create a script that he runs when playing, that has as an effect to display the move but not to answer the "clock starting" request before some time - thus creating a time cheat.

    I think I have already answered and in fact proposed the solution. So again:

    Example I.

    Player A makes the move and his clocks in his browser stop ticking. The browser tries to send the move with time information included to the server, but for some reason can't. Server clocks keeps ticking, but immediately after reconnection and obtaining the move with time stamp, the server stops and corrects player's A time on its internal clocks and forwards this information to player's B browser, which makes the move visible on the board and also stops and corrects player's A time.

    Example II.

    Player B moves, move goes to the server, but during the tranfer to player's A browser trouble occur. Player's B move contains info about time consumed created by his browser. In the meantime, player A sees opponent's clocks ticking. No problem, because once the move is delivered, opponent clocks is auto-corrected, but definitely not at the expense of player A. Player A keeps his time and his clocks is allowed to start ticking after the opponent's move becomes visible.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #49

    Irontiger

    Polar_Bear wrote:

    I think I have already answered and in fact proposed the solution. So again:

    Example I.

    Player A makes the move and his clocks in his browser stop ticking. The browser tries to send the move with time information included to the server, but for some reason can't. Server clocks keeps ticking, but immediately after reconnection and obtaining the move with time stamp, the server stops and corrects player's A time on its internal clocks and forwards this information to player's B browser, which makes the move visible on the board and also stops and corrects player's A time.

    Then I create I time cheat by the following script pseudocode.

    "when receiving move from the server, note the time ; when sending move to the server, time indication is last noted time + 0.1s"

    The problem is that chess.com servers have no way to avoid that you run such thing on your computer. This is for example 1.

    Example 2 is not clear on how A's clock is corrected after trouble occurs. On the server side, there is no way to know whether the transfer went well or not, so the only way is to ask a reply from player A's browser saying "wait, we lost XX seconds delivering the move" - in any case, this can be manipulated by a similar program.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #50

    Polar_Bear

    Creating a time-cheat script may be easy task for an expert, but almost impossible for common user. It requires some work and knowledge anyway. Well, the information between server and player's computer should be encrypted to make it hard even for experts.

    Even if you were right - minor time cheating is definitely lesser evil than breaking the rules subtracting player's time.

    And finally, it is logical afflicted players feel cheated and angry. It is nothing you should laugh at, especially when they weren't aware they had been disconnected (maybe they hadn't, server was overloaded).

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #51

    Irontiger

    Polar_Bear wrote:

    Even if you were right - minor time cheating is definitely lesser evil than breaking the rules subtracting player's time.

    And finally, it is logical afflicted players feel cheated and angry. It is nothing you should laugh at, especially when they weren't aware they had been disconnected (maybe they hadn't, server was overloaded).

    Yes, you can feel angry as long as you please, and I feel angry too when this happens to me, I don't laugh at that because there is nothing laughable, but I still think this is the way to go. Your opinion is not stupid, but you have to concede some manipulation problems in your system.

    Encryption of the time information is useless because where the cheat lies in is the data the player sends to the server, and there is no way to authentificate that data - the player can encrypt a false time.

    "Sufficient computer knowledge", sure, but as soon as you get 10 person that have that knowledge, you get say 2-3 that are decided to use it, and who pass it (=the script to use with detailed manual, not the knowledge) to 10 of their friends each, who pass it to...

    And BTW, the current system prevents also the abuse of disconnecting sore losers, that's not time cheat but still annoying. If you set up a time of say 90s before a disconnected players is kicked out of the game, there will be many players in a completely lost game that will coincidentally disconnect for 89s every move, thus making the game last an hour when it was a blitz. I thought there were some comment about that on other sites in the thread, but I cannot find it anymore.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #52

    LongIslandMark

    In my post #46, I said the mysterious disappearing time "was an error in the server". I should have said "that might be an error in the server".

    There are other ways a malicious program on the client (your PC, tablet, phone) could manipulate the system, which I will not detail. From an integrity standpoint, the server can trust almost nothing that might be sent from your browser (of course, it has to trust the move you made).

    Sad there are a few that cause central server systems like this to be so defensive. Maybe ten years from now it will be different.

  • 17 months ago · Quote · #53

    QuickBullet69

    I have the same problem as you and my internet connection is actually incredible, only happens when im 1 or 2 moves from winning and whats worse, i was pre moving the whole way. When i check the peoples page they have a lot of insult explaining this same situation. I think some bullet players have  a program to force this.

  • 17 months ago · Quote · #54

    Admiral_Kirk

    You're new here I see. Please, no foul language in the forums. It is against the TOS and there are consequences.

  • 17 months ago · Quote · #55

    Bartolov

    this happen to me on other server( Yahoo chess) I play a 15 min game and the other person had a lose position and he stopping moving ,his clock start to go down from 10 min to 1 and suddenly something happens and the times was switching and I get his time 1 min and he get my time 11min and i lost f the game on time. I think is a hacker program and is used all over the internet. I stooping playing live chess on internet now and focus on learning.

  • 6 months ago · Quote · #56

    KingHardig

    all you dumb shits trying to explain cobra's situation away are knuckle heads. The same damn thing happened to me in a 15/10 game against, "chelseayu" last night. So please if you don't have nothing more meaningful to say or a way to help contact chess.com, that seem to have been running from the public for many months now, please don't comment at all.

  • 6 months ago · Quote · #57

    hdjur_jcv

    I have the same problem only when using Android application, never with Firefox on mint, so there must be some difference in behaviour between these two. I move and my clock continues to tick, and I can't do anything but wait until I lose on time.

  • 3 months ago · Quote · #58

    Ronald_Aprianto

    If you have the issue about time manipulation, you can check a simple case from the games than have been playing by MohammedYassin. He uses a Time Manipulator (engines/software). Check out his profile at http://www.chess.com/members/view/MohammedYassin

    Now he is playing bullet and you can follow him (type: /follow MohammedYassin) and observe how the software does!

  • 3 months ago · Quote · #59

    Irontiger

    Ronald_Aprianto wrote:

    If you have the issue about time manipulation, you can check a simple case from the games than have been playing by MohammedYassin. He uses a Time Manipulator (engines/software). Check out his profile at http://www.chess.com/members/view/MohammedYassin

    Now he is playing bullet and you can follow him (type: /follow MohammedYassin) and observe how the software does!

    Quoted in case you wished to edit your 3-month necro violating name-and-shame policy.

  • 3 months ago · Quote · #60

    QuickBullet69

    [COMMENT DELETED]

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