Hi

I am trying to search for GM games that start with the Center game opening (C20-C21) & transpose to Petrovs defence C43 that feature the very specific move order

1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Nf3 Nc6 {Center game transposing to Petrovs C43}*

but when I try in Fritz9 /Chessbase light premium & Scid & Chessbase online database (how many databases /chess programs do I need?!!) I get games with the more mainline C43 move order 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4.

Does anyone know how I can search in these database programs to get only games with the exact move order I want (ie Centre game transposing to Petrov's)? Is this possible to do? I am grateful for advice on this & look forward to helpful replies.Thanks

Hi

I made an error with the moves I am looking for (I meant 3.Nf6).

Just to clarify this again- The opening I am searching for is

1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Nf3 Nf6 (Centre game to C43 Petrov's)

GM games in my chess database programs (& not search for /find games 1 e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4).

Can anyone tell me if I can search for this specific move order (1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Nf3 Nf6 )in these databases (Fritz9 /Chessbase light/Scid) or whether the searches will come up with the transposition line also? (which I am currently finding happening!).

Thank you

I'm not certain there is an automatic feature to give you what you want.I might suggest generating a list of 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Nf3 games, then looking through those for 3...Nf6 moves.

But the more important question is, why does it matter? The position is the only thing of significance here...I'm just not understanding the need for such a process.

Why does it matter!?

I am sure you know that move order makes a difference in chess play!

To explain my interest a little more, I have an opening I like to play & this can be reached through several transpositional lines. I simply need to know what 'main ' lines and openings can occur from these different move orders so that  I may not be surprised & unprepared against them and also to consider if there are ways to make my moves to steer the opening back to my preferred opening. 

I hope that this is  a little more illuminating, DimKnight.

Let's refer to this:

rnbqkb1r/pppp1ppp/5n2/8/3pP3/5N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 4

as "Position X." There are, of course, a variety of ways to reach Position X. For example, 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Nf3 Nf6 and 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 exd4 may the the most common, but not the only, ways to reach Position X.Once play has reached Position X, play can diverge in a great many ways. White may play Nxd4, Qxd4, or e5, just to name a few.

It seems to me that what you are asking is whether the move choices players make following Position X may have something to do with the move order they chose to reach Position X. This may or may not be true; but again, I doubt it's relevant. From Position X, you will have to be prepared against all contingencies anyway. If you want to spend time on the basic academic question, that's fine; but if you want to spend your opening-preparation time profitably, I can't for the life of me see why it matters how you got to Position X in the first place.

A possible solution for scid: You can combine multiple searches, so you can try first searching for the position after 1. e4 e5 2. d4 exd4 and then search with the AND (Restrict filter) operation for the position after 3. Nf3 Nf6. That way you should end up with only the games that went through both positions.

Another, maybe even easier way: Put the position on the board, Go to Tools->Opening Report, find "4.1 Move orders reaching the report position" in the report and click on the correct line to put all matching games in the filter.

Hi again DimKnight & thanks exoticorn

I am sorry DimKnight that I cannot clearly explain to you why it matters to me how position X is reached (& what may happen from there). If it doesn't matter to you, then that is fine and perfectly acceptable (I play weird chess anyway!!).Thanks for your thoughts and input. The center game opening was suggested to me to try by someone who seemed to think it would almost guarantee I reached my preferred opening & would not lead to another opening (Petrovs actually)! Since I have investigated this I have had to disagree with this person that I should change my opening to the center game opening move order.

Using Scid to search for these move orders and opening reports is a good idea and I will try it sometime. I do like chess software especially open source freeware and Scid looks good. However when I first tried Scid I had difficulty getting to play a game versus the engine & it is so different from other chess interfaces (Chessbase,Conveckta etc) that I have largely ignored it! I must persevere with it!

Thanks and best wishes

Here's how to do what you want in Chessbase 9+:

   1. Search for the desired position.

   2. In the result, click on the "Notation" field to sort by move order.

Total time = 45 seconds.

Now it's easy to see the games that reaches that position via the 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Nf3 Nf6 move order you requested. You can also select those games and copy them elsewhere, gather statistics, sort by other fields, etc. Hope this helps. :)

I don't have Chessbase Light, so I can't say whether it has this feature or not.

playe4> but when I try in Fritz9 /Chessbase light premium & Scid & Chessbase online database (how many databases /chess programs do I need?!!)

Chessbase plus Big Database is plenty for 98% of my work.

Petrov is for black right? well take a look at this

d4,Nf6 im not really sure cause the one your putting there that

might me the Smith-Morra gambit.....

donngerard, the Smith-Morra Gambit goes 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 c3. Both lines have an early d-pawn break but otherwise are quite different.

Hi likesforests

Thanks for your helpful advice on database search in CB9.

As ChessBaseLightPremium07 is a ChessBase product I presumed it would be similar to CB9 and so it was when I tried it with your advice just now. I did not see a 'Notation' tab but when I changed list format (under view menu) to 'Moves Only' then I could check for the line I wanted (ie 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Nf3 Nf6). I then selected each game with this line & copied them all into a new database. It just needed me to look very carefully through the original database to select the 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Nf3 Nf6 line I wanted. So this has helped resolve my problem/query;thank you.

I still remain surprised though that when you do a search in a database it is not exactly specific to the move order you supply and that this cannot be done automatically for you (I am lazy & expect the computer to do what I want! I do expect too much-LOL!).

However I now know how I can search databases in CBLPremium more fully in this way which is helpful. I still have to try using Scid as exoticorn suggested (but Scid was useful to me recently when CBLP07 refused to search and return any games played by black in one of my databases! I still don't understand how or why that happened! Possibly my error somehow?.....the joys of computer chess -lol again!).

Once again thanks for all replies to my query (now solved!). Best wishes to all for good chess play & study in the coming New Year!