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Draws By Repetition

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28th January 2009, 05:03pm
#1
by JR18
PA United States
Member Since: Dec 2007
Member Points: 32

I think forced draws by repetition shouldn't be allowed.

I recently played someone who i was on the verge of beating but they kept checking my king with their queen, and it was in a corner so i could only move it to one spot, then back.

His reasoning was "you had a better chance of winning, so i should draw you"

Am i the only one that thinks that forced draws by a losing party shouldn't be allowed?  They seem unsportsmanlike and unethical.

What do you think?

28th January 2009, 05:08pm
#2
by zack8412
Allentown United States
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 2

Draws by repetition definitely seem like a almost cheap way of avoiding a loss, even though a loss is inevitable.  One could reason that it is an aspect of strategy in the end game to avoid the loss and keep a ratings loss to a minimum, and I understand the logic behind this, but it seems a way of giving in to the fact that you lost, and are only looking for a way of avoiding the obvious.

28th January 2009, 05:12pm
#3
by RandomPrecision
Illinois United States
Member Since: Feb 2008
Member Points: 311

If you can force a draw, then you haven't really lost, have you?

The draw by repetition is a convenience - without it, you'd have to repeat the position 50 times instead of only 3, to claim a draw by the 50-move rule.

And if you extend the case to eliminate that draw as well, then the game could continue indefinately, or be decided by a clock with no bonus time.  I don't see either of these an an acceptable result.

28th January 2009, 05:19pm
#4
by einstein_69101
Nebraska United States
Member Since: Dec 2007
Member Points: 7426

I agree with RandomPrecision.  :)  If you don't have enough defense to stop the perpetual check then you really don't have a winning position since part of winning is to protect your own king long enough so you have time to checkmate the opponent's king.  :)

28th January 2009, 05:20pm
#5
by AlecKeen
Chester, England Ireland
Member Since: Jul 2007
Member Points: 191

Part of the skill of driving home an advantage is to foresee such a position and craft the endgame accordingly. Repetition takes two to tango.

28th January 2009, 05:25pm
#6
by RandomPrecision
Illinois United States
Member Since: Feb 2008
Member Points: 311

Separately, I'd also like to point out that not all draws by repetition are to avoid a loss.  Consider the opening of a game I recently played:

In this game, it was not the case that the position was repeated to avoid a loss (although it turns out that 50 moves later, it would have), it occured in an intricate position where I didn't feel I could advance my pieces, and white didn't really have any better options than to have the queen dart between a3 and d3.

28th January 2009, 05:28pm
#7
by cowsreallymoo
Somewhere In The Great United States
Member Since: Nov 2008
Member Points: 214

draws by repitition are fine and if you dont want to draw then look aheadd and make sure you wont get into that situation

28th January 2009, 05:30pm
#8
by bondiggity
United States
Member Since: Jun 2008
Member Points: 1769

If this the game that you were referencing to, you should be ecstatic that your opponent allowed you a draw. Also, you can easily prevent the draw by blocking with your queen, so if you really believed that you position was better (which it definitely wasn't), you could have prevented the draw that way.

 

That being said, I agree with RandomPrecision and Einstein that if you can't stop the perpetual check, you don't have a winning position.

28th January 2009, 05:45pm
#9
by joly
melb Australia
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 78

also, i struggle to identify a reasonable alternative. should the player who keeps checking eventually be forced to play an alternative (and perhaps clearly inferior) move to allow the game to continue? what if the only other move would be to hang his/her queen?

28th January 2009, 05:54pm
#10
by BorgQueen
Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: Aug 2008
Member Points: 19538

Draw by 3rd repetition is fine as it is.   I aim for it when I am playing someone higher rated than me :p

28th January 2009, 09:16pm
#11
by LoneWolfEburg
Ekaterinburg Russia
Member Since: Jun 2008
Member Points: 312

"Should the player who keeps checking eventually be forced to play an alternative (and perhaps clearly inferior) move to allow the game to continue? what if the only other move would be to hang his/her queen?"

In Xiangqi (Chinese Chess), it works exactly that way.

In Shogi (Japanese Chess), it's a draw if the same position  repeats oneself 4 times, but doing it by perpetual check is considered a loss for the checking player.

28th January 2009, 09:21pm
#12
by Loomis
Durham, NC United States
Member Since: Oct 2007
Member Points: 4945

You don't win the game by getting to a winning position. You win the game by checkmating your opponent. If you can't get out of check, then you can't checkmate your opponent and you can't win. Your griping about a perpetual check is just sour grapes over not having the foresight to defend your king.

http://blog.chess.com/Loomis/perpetual-check

28th January 2009, 09:24pm
#13
by TheGrobe
Calgary Canada
Member Since: Nov 2007
Member Points: 14433

Agreed -- being on the verge of beating someone isn't the same as beating someone and a position in which your opponent finds perpetual check isn't a winning position.  It's a drawn position.

There's some real skill involved with finding a draw from an apparently losing position -- it's an admirable ability and I wish I was better at it.

28th January 2009, 09:33pm
#14
by neospooky
Virginia United States
Member Since: Apr 2008
Member Points: 234
LoneWolfEburg wrote:

"Should the player who keeps checking eventually be forced to play an alternative (and perhaps clearly inferior) move to allow the game to continue? what if the only other move would be to hang his/her queen?"

In Xiangqi (Chinese Chess), it works exactly that way.

In Shogi (Japanese Chess), it's a draw if the same position  repeats oneself 4 times, but doing it by perpetual check is considered a loss for the checking player.


Good, so you're aware of the alternatives to playing games with the three-fold repetition rule.  I suggest you go play those instead of suggesting chess be more like them. 

28th January 2009, 09:36pm
#15
by joly
melb Australia
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 78
LoneWolfEburg wrote:

"Should the player who keeps checking eventually be forced to play an alternative (and perhaps clearly inferior) move to allow the game to continue? what if the only other move would be to hang his/her queen?"

In Xiangqi (Chinese Chess), it works exactly that way.

In Shogi (Japanese Chess), it's a draw if the same position  repeats oneself 4 times, but doing it by perpetual check is considered a loss for the checking player.


 Thankyou LWE, that is very interesting. You do learn something some days.

Meanwhile, what about where you are clearly winning materially and from most positional perspectives but get a bit over excited and, even worse than a perpetual queen check, end up backrank mated by a lone castle. A number of 'cheaters' have pulled this repeatedly on me. Could we design a rule (which doesn't require me having to become any better at chess)?

2nd December 2009, 05:23pm
#16
by Physh
Wilmington, Delaware United States
Member Since: Apr 2009
Member Points: 4

Draw by repetition is a great part of the game.  You should look for creative ways to achieve it as a way to attain a draw from an inferior position or when down in material.  If you are ahead you have to avoid it - otherwise the best you have done is draw.

2nd December 2009, 05:36pm
#17
by AlexandrLuzhin
United States
Member Since: Dec 2009
Member Points: 4

If that fly-ball to medium-deep left field had only been a home run I would have had a "winning position"...if the goalie had vanished and my kick had scored a goal I would have had a winning position...etc, etc.

A "winning position"...wins...  If not, it was maddeningly close to winning, so close you could see it...but when the bat cracked and the fly ball had no real momentum...you get my point.

If someone can earn a draw from a "losing position"...good on them I say.

2nd December 2009, 05:41pm
#18
by Kupov3
Canada
Member Since: Nov 2009
Member Points: 902

Draws by repetition are the ultimate form of dishonor and a direct affront to my warriors creed.

2nd December 2009, 05:44pm
#19
by Kupov3
Canada
Member Since: Nov 2009
Member Points: 902
LoneWolfEburg wrote:

"Should the player who keeps checking eventually be forced to play an alternative (and perhaps clearly inferior) move to allow the game to continue? what if the only other move would be to hang his/her queen?"

In Xiangqi (Chinese Chess), it works exactly that way.

In Shogi (Japanese Chess), it's a draw if the same position  repeats oneself 4 times, but doing it by perpetual check is considered a loss for the checking player.


So... not a draw then?

2nd December 2009, 05:50pm
#20
by Kupov3
Canada
Member Since: Nov 2009
Member Points: 902

Of course the ancient Japanese didn't allow draws *rolls eyes*.

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