Draws

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13th April 2009, 06:47am
#1
by Me10167
York United States
Member Since: Nov 2008
Member Points: 38

I played this game with a person ranked 1200, (maybe someone new.) I was winning when a person offered a draw. Since I was winning I said no way. Then... he got smart, in 10 more turns i was checkmated. Should I have taken the offer for the draw.

13th April 2009, 07:26am
#2
by AMcHarg
Livingston Scotland
Member Since: Apr 2008
Member Points: 913

Depends on the game, just because you lost doesn't mean your position from the point of draw-offer wasn't in your favour.  If you were winning then you were right to decline the draw and it's just unfortunate that you lost from a 'winning' position, but without an example it's impossible for us to say whether you were winning or not. Cool

13th April 2009, 07:35am
#3
by RandomPrecision
Illinois United States
Member Since: Feb 2008
Member Points: 309

I assume it was this game, since it was your opponent's only blitz game.

13th April 2009, 07:50am
#4
by Jinnka
Waterloo Canada
Member Since: Oct 2008
Member Points: 85

Clearly if you lost after a draw was offered, you should have taken the draw.

13th April 2009, 07:59am
#5
by AMcHarg
Livingston Scotland
Member Since: Apr 2008
Member Points: 913
Jinnka wrote:

Clearly if you lost after a draw was offered, you should have taken the draw.


How do you work that out?  If my position is superior to yours and you offer me a draw I am not likely to accept it am I?  If I then go and blunder my Queen in the next move then the chances are you will go on to win, this doesn't mean I should have accepted the draw, it simply means I shouldn't have blundered my Queen.  Do you understand what I mean? Cool

13th April 2009, 08:10am
#6
by mschosting
Portugal Portugal
Member Since: Feb 2008
Member Points: 1096

Never take the draws even if you are completely lost!

The draw is an offer for you to remain in ignorance nothing more nothing less, unless it is a simple endgame position were both players are back and forth and no advance can be made.

13th April 2009, 08:19am
#7
by bookmarkbar
Canada
Member Since: Apr 2009
Member Points: 6
AMcHarg wrote:
Jinnka wrote:

Clearly if you lost after a draw was offered, you should have taken the draw.


How do you work that out?  If my position is superior to yours and you offer me a draw I am not likely to accept it am I?  If I then go and blunder my Queen in the next move then the chances are you will go on to win, this doesn't mean I should have accepted the draw, it simply means I shouldn't have blundered my Queen.  Do you understand what I mean?


The poster isn't being logical, he's just blindly listening to his hindsight bias.

13th April 2009, 08:23am
#8
by elaw304
Boston United States
Member Since: Apr 2009
Member Points: 12
mschosting wrote:

Never take the draws even if you are completely lost!


umm what?

13th April 2009, 08:28am
#9
by RC_Woods
Nijmegen Netherlands
Member Since: Jan 2008
Member Points: 555

If this is the game, you should have taken every draw offer. "In ten more turns I got checkmated" you say. If this is the game, you were losing well before that.

13th April 2009, 08:38am
#10
by mschosting
Portugal Portugal
Member Since: Feb 2008
Member Points: 1096
RC_Woods wrote:

If this is the game, you should have taken every draw offer. "In ten more turns I got checkmated" you say. If this is the game, you were losing well before that.

 


 mmm what would be the point on taking the draw? Not loosing elo? If  you not 2700++ I don't think elo matters at all, at least in 2700++ ppl get really paid to play thats the only reason why elo would matter... My point is easy you are in an unclear position even if you feel you are worst but can't see a clear finish, if you play it even if you loose you end up winning knowledge. Obviously if you are completely lost and the opponent gives you a draw then go for it lol

13th April 2009, 08:47am
#11
by NM Reb
Lisbon Portugal
Member Since: Sep 2007
Member Points: 4074
mschosting wrote:

Never take the draws even if you are completely lost!

The draw is an offer for you to remain in ignorance nothing more nothing less, unless it is a simple endgame position were both players are back and forth and no advance can be made.


 This is terrible advice and you can safely ignore it. Ofcourse we all want to win but a draw IS better than a loss so if you are offered a draw in a position that you believe you are lost in ofcourse you should accept the draw and perhaps even thank your opponent for the "gift". Before you accept the draw double check the position to be sure your opponent hasnt just blundered though.

13th April 2009, 08:52am
#12
by richie_and_oprah
Marie Byrd Land International
Member Since: Feb 2009
Member Points: 1861

Black had the better, and possibly winning positon in the included diagram. The pin on the Knight and the outside passer are most important.

13th April 2009, 09:42am
#13
by mschosting
Portugal Portugal
Member Since: Feb 2008
Member Points: 1096
Reb wrote:
mschosting wrote:

Never take the draws even if you are completely lost!

The draw is an offer for you to remain in ignorance nothing more nothing less, unless it is a simple endgame position were both players are back and forth and no advance can be made.


 This is terrible advice and you can safely ignore it. Ofcourse we all want to win but a draw IS better than a loss so if you are offered a draw in a position that you believe you are lost in ofcourse you should accept the draw and perhaps even thank your opponent for the "gift". Before you accept the draw double check the position to be sure your opponent hasnt just blundered though.


 A win is better then a loss? How so? Most players will tell you they learned lots of stuff from their losses and nothing from the wins. Now it will depend on your aim/objectives but almost always it will be better to loose a game then to get a draw from a game you think you are loosing.

 

Lets Imagine you have a game you think you are loosing but you can offer a draw to your opponent.

1- You take the draw don't loose rating but on other game you get a similar position your opponent makes fun of you when you offer the draw and then beats you silly

 

2- You refuse to ask for the draw, you really are lost and your opponent shows you exactly why, you learn your lesson and avoid those kinds of positions again.

 

3- You refuse to ask for the draw, you seem to be better them you tougth you were, you have a tough fight and end up winning the game, you are very pleased with yourself and you really learned some new potential in the position you were in.

 

4- Your opponent resigns on a lost position for you. you get 100! elo points! you are very pleased, you go into a new game, you get a stronger opponent since you have an higer rating, you get roll over by him, you get sad poor boy and you endup killing your wife kids and yourself due to an horrible depression!

13th April 2009, 09:54am
#14
by richie_and_oprah
Marie Byrd Land International
Member Since: Feb 2009
Member Points: 1861

Wins are better than loses.

You can absolutle learn from wins.  There are usally just as many mistakes by both players.  You won, they lost.  This provides ample opportunity to find better lines of play for both sides.

Look at professional publications and you will see player mainly annotate their victories, and in so doing, both they and the reader learn a lot from the game.

13th April 2009, 09:59am
#15
by mschosting
Portugal Portugal
Member Since: Feb 2008
Member Points: 1096
richie_and_oprah wrote:

Wins are better than loses.

You can absolutle learn from wins.  There are usally just as many mistakes by both players.  You won, they lost.  This provides ample opportunity to find better lines of play for both sides.

Look at professional publications and you will see player mainly annotate their victories, and in so doing, both they and the reader learn a lot from the game.


 In what point is a win better then a loss? Except obviously if you are in the money round in a must win situation...

13th April 2009, 10:12am
#16
by richie_and_oprah
Marie Byrd Land International
Member Since: Feb 2009
Member Points: 1861

1. It is the point of playing the game. 2. If you do not think you can learn something from a win, I cannot help you.   As stated earlier, if one person wins, another loses.  If you think when you win there is nothing to improve upon, I can not only not help you, but am no longer willing to even try.

~ Good luck and Good Chess!

13th April 2009, 11:06am
#17
by mschosting
Portugal Portugal
Member Since: Feb 2008
Member Points: 1096
richie_and_oprah wrote:

1. It is the point of playing the game. 2. If you do not think you can learn something from a win, I cannot help you.   As stated earlier, if one person wins, another loses.  If you think when you win there is nothing to improve upon, I can not only not help you, but am no longer willing to even try.

~ Good luck and Good Chess!


 lol relax actually there are lots more points to be an happy looser then an happy winer 1 not true at all that will depend on your objective at that time, a simple sample you lived 500 years ago :) and you were playing a king you knew you could beat him easily but that would make him kill you, your objective would be to win the game?

Less far fetch you are Mr.Kramnik and you are pay'd to loose a game to some patzer like Anand or Topalov lol you go in the board what would be you objective in that game? mmmm

2 I did not say I could not learn anything from a win just that most GM always say in interviews they learn the most out of defeats and I see the logic quite easily

13th April 2009, 11:40am
#18
by chAmPheSs
Mississauga Canada
Member Since: Feb 2009
Member Points: 86

Yes. If you did the game would have been a draw and not a win for him. However, reguallarly you shouldn't accept a draw when winning a game.

13th April 2009, 12:40pm
#19
by richie_and_oprah
Marie Byrd Land International
Member Since: Feb 2009
Member Points: 1861
mschosting wrote:

2 I did not say I could not learn anything from a win just that most GM always say in interviews they learn the most out of defeats and I see the logic quite easily


This is said most often to let other people feel better about their own failures.

Most GM do not lose all that often, ever, so it begs the question of how they manage to get good to begin with.  I remember playing Nakamura a while back and in our post mortem he said he never really learned from loses, didn't look at them all that much, and tended to forget them as soon as possible.  Comments such as these by H Nakamura have been published and are easily found.

I learn just as much from wins as loses, and in this fashion I speak only for myself and tthat goes for the next statement as well. Accepting loses is one thing, part of the pantheon of chess, but deliberately losing because one thinks there is gain to be had in doing such is supercillious.

 

#30

 

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