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First move advantage


  • 2 years ago · Quote · #1

    John_Doe18

    I always read that the first move advantage is a nice thing. Well my question is that is this advantage sufficient to win a game?

    What do you think, with perfect play by both sides, will white win or it will be a draw?

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #2

    senor_ananas

    I think somewhere I read following:

    With perfect play by both sides White first gains a positional advantage, then wins a pawn, then a knight for a pawn. The game reaches endgame with White King, Rook and Knight versus Black King and Rook. With perfect play White cannot force checkmate, so the game ends in a draw.

     

    I can't cite the source, neither know if it is right, but I like it :) If this is right, it means that every chess game in history that didn't end in a draw was 'flawed', which for me means that chess will never be solved by computers.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #3

    John_Doe18

    senor_ananas wrote

     

    I can't cite the source, neither know if it is right, but I like it :) If this is right, it means that every chess game in history that didn't end in a draw was 'flawed',

    You are very true, every game which didn't end in a draw had a loser, who must have commited mistakes

    I have also read somewhere that this first move advantage get quickly dissolved in games of lower rated players

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #4

    PatzerLars

    John_Doe18 wrote:
    senor_ananas wrote

     

    I can't cite the source, neither know if it is right, but I like it :) If this is right, it means that every chess game in history that didn't end in a draw was 'flawed',

    You are very true, every game which didn't end in a draw had a loser, who must have commited mistakes

    ...

    Even drawn games (which have no loser) can be flawed. Just because a game is drawn, doesn't make it perfect.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #5

    Estragon

    NO, the advantage of the first move is most certainly NOT enough to force a win.  It isn't even enough to force a slight advantage by itself.  It's the equivalent of a half-step head start in a race:  you aren't going to win unless you are really run faster.

    With very skillful play, White can keep that edge going so he can expand it with every small misstep Black makes, but Black will need to make several slightly weaker moves before White has anything he can point to.  And sometimes the very strategy Black decides to adopt - say, to play for a win from the start instead of trying to counter that little tiny edge of White's first - may give White just the opening he needs to expand that advantage.

    But even if White manages to emerge from the opening somewhat better, he is still a long way from winning.  In most games there are multiple mistakes on both sides.  Even Carlsen and Aronian and Kramnik and Anand make some bad moves along the way.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #6

    John_Doe18

    I would like chess.com to have a survey on this question

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #7

    senor_ananas

    I am not saying that all drawn games are perfect, of course there can be 'mistakes'. like here http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1338514, but who cares about the mistakes. they make the chess and also the life interesting.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #8

    ponz111

    Among the best players, masters and above there is virtually no debate--chess is a draw with best play on both sides.

    Only players not experienced enough in chess would think chess is a win for either side with best play.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #9

    fabelhaft

    I've seen some stats showing that the usual difference for a top player between his white and black games is 100-150 Elo. So someone rated 2800 would in general perform maybe 2740 with black and 2860 with white. That's why it's considered such an advantage to have an extra white in a tournament, even if it of course isn't enough to be winning out of the opening it does improve the winning chances quite a bit in practice.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #10

    sorouush

    lol

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #11

    PLAVIN79

    ALWAYS TRY FOR FIRST MOVE ADVANTAGESmile

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #12

    ponz111

    Yes, always try to play White.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #13

    finalunpurez

    Its a advantage but not big enough for the win.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #14

    madhacker

    In all of chess I think white is supposed to score something like 54% to black's 46%. It's a small advantage, which is probably best captured in the concept of the "right to an inaccuracy". If white makes a slightly inaccurate move in the opening, it's no big deal, the position is probably just equal. But if black makes a similar inaccuracy, his position could soon become difficult.

    But anyone who thinks chess is a forced win for white is simply demonstrating that they understand nothing about chess.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #15

    fabelhaft

    joeydvivre wrote:
    fabelhaft wrote:

    I've seen some stats showing that the usual difference for a top player between his white and black games is 100-150 Elo. So someone rated 2800 would in general perform maybe 2740 with black and 2860 with white. That's why it's considered such an advantage to have an extra white in a tournament, even if it of course isn't enough to be winning out of the opening it does improve the winning chances quite a bit in practice.

    There is no chance that this is true and you have not seen this.  A 150 point rating difference gives the lower rated player an expectation of 0.35 for the game.  Think that black scores only 35% in game samong top players?  

    As can be seen from the links below the performance with white vs black the last decade looks like this for Kasparov and Kramnik.

    Kasparov: 2876 with white, 2753 with black (124 points difference)

    Kramnik: 2842 with white, 2713 with black (129 points difference)

    http://members.aon.at/sfischl/white.txt

    http://members.aon.at/sfischl/black.txt

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #16

    zborg

    ponz111 wrote:

    Among the best players, masters and above there is virtually no debate--chess is a draw with best play on both sides.

    Only players not experienced enough in chess would think chess is a win for either side with best play.

    Still, some players on this site might need this information tatooed on their butt, in order to remember it.  Laughing

    Because this same topic is restarted, just about every month of the year.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #17

    Here_Is_Plenty

    This debate is drawn with best play.  Chess I am not so sure of.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #18

    silentiarius

    We all know from our white games that the starting position is a draw. But we know from our black games that this cannot be true.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #19

    Boletus_CZ

    I don`t think there is a big first move advantage (speaking of players at my level). The only good thing I can see is that I can chose an opening when I am White. I know people who play better with black pieces. But your question made me check my stats and they show there is a first move advantage. I finished 522 games (standard, turn based - 256 as White, 266 as Black) and my stats are:

    White - 71%W/ 11%L/ 18%D

    Black - 68%W/ 14%L/ 18%D.

    My average opponent rating (last 3 months) is 1639 when I win, 1990 when I lose, and 1848 when I draw. 496 games were tournament ones which means I played the same opponent with both colours. 

     

    It is interesting that I have better results as White even in Chess960 but I have finished only 59 games which is not enough to make a conclusion.

     

    Anyway, I don`t think the first move advantage is sufficient to win a game.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #20

    fabelhaft

    joeydvivre wrote:

    Now see if you can figure out why it might be this way for the top 5 players in the world with ratings way out in the tails but the statement that white is worth 100-150 points is fabulously not true....

    Some more stats, counting 2005-09 and a few of the "whiter" players well below the top five:

    Grischuk 2797 with white, 2660 with black (137 points difference)

    Naiditsch 2734 with white, 2597 with black (137 points difference)

    Bu Xiangzhi 2745 with white, 2613 with black (132 points difference)

    http://members.aon.at/sfischl/white0509.txt

    http://members.aon.at/sfischl/black0509.txt

    As can be seen Kramnik was one of the "whitest" players in this period with 2854 as white and 2700 with black (154 points difference).


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