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Humans v Houdini chess engine (Elo 3300)


  • 3 years ago · Quote · #161

    Ubik42

    CharlieFreak wrote:
    LegoPirateSenior wrote:
    While this is a commonly seen assertion, this paper disagrees with it: http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~regan/papers/pdf/ReHa11c.pdf.

    That's interesting! The investigators in this paper analysed 1000s of master games with a super-engine (Rybka) and recorded how often players made the same move as the super-engine's recommendation. They found that the stronger the player, the more often their moves matched the super-engine's moves.

    Their data shows that as a players strength increases, the probability that they will play the same move as a super-engine gets closer to 1. Therefore they assumed that the super-engine's moves were almost always the best available.


     Yes, but this also is OTB and not correspondence.

    We dont have a correspondence test available ( that I know of) of a super GM playing Houdini at a time control of 3 days/move.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #163

    Elubas

    It's strange to hear that, pfren. I'm only going by my individual experience, so it doesn't mean anything, but I remember when I switched from Fritz to Houdini, and I couldn't believe how human-like and positional it seemed to be. Of course, it's all relative, and today, as much as I respect it, I can still tell it's a computer :)

    Still, Fritz is a commercial engine, and I think Houdini is way better, so I think you should maybe give it more credit. With that said, I don't have any experience with other engines.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #164

    AmaurosisScacchisti

    [COMMENT DELETED]
  • 3 years ago · Quote · #165

    coolkid1812

    its awesome

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #166

    kkkjk

    CharlieFreak wrote:

    I agree with padman. 

    Quote from wikipedia (under Houdini) -

    When GM Peter Svidler was asked which one player he would choose to represent Earth in a hypothetical match against aliens, he answered "Houdini"

    GM Svidler seems to agree too!

    This QUESTION ASKED TO VISHWANATHAN ANAND... NOT FOR SWIDLER.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #167

    ChristianSoldier007

    we should do a "houdini vs chess.com" match... I could supply Houdini. Sounds like fun

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #168

    ChristianSoldier007

    sure I'll do it Limau want me to send you a game challenge?

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #169

    IrrationalTiger

    For all of the people singing Houdini's praise, I own Houdini, I use it for some things, and it's spectacular at calculating and finding moves I wouldn't normally see, but not much use for anything else.    For all that it can do and how strong it is, I'm still amazed at what it gets wrong and how it's really not an excuse for human thought.  For example, when I play the moves 1. c4 e5 2. g3 Nf6, Houdini immerses itself in deep calculations and then proceeds to tell me that black is up 1/5th of a pawn.  It operates on a formula based mostly on brute calculation, to the point that when it doesn't recognize something and there's nothing tactical in the position it'll just spout out a random number based on who it thinks is better developed. Houdini also frequently fails to understand positional domination - in a position where one move "stalemates" a piece and changes the ending into an eventual win and another wins a pawn, Houdini will take the pawn 10 times out of 10.  When Houdini is outside of a tablebase and calculation range in the endgame, it doesn't understand how to push for a win in a drawn position or how to plan ahead and improve your pieces so that your position is at its most optimal point before eventually taking up action.  I agree with pfren in that people vastly overestimate the capabilities of engines - we're intimidated by their impeccable tactics so we overlook a lot of flaws.  

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #170

    Elubas

    What you say applies to any chess engine, though. As bad as Houdini may be, I think Fritz is even worse -- when I switched from Fritz to Houdini, Houdini seemed so positional and human-like. Of course, now it doesn't quite seem that way, but I like it a lot more than Fritz. How do you know Houdini only judges based on development? It likes square coverage, but are you not just guessing on what it's basing its evaluations on? There are some positions though where it doesn't have a plan -- I have seen blocked positions where it likes one side (because there are more pieces), but the other side is the one with pawn breaks. As you start to play out the plan for the latter side (pawn advances on a wing), it can often change its mind.

    On the other hand, a lot of people use the fact that sometimes the computer is wrong as an excuse to disregard what it says. I think the computer usually has a pretty good feel for positions simply because, if you can't be broken down, then your position is probably pretty good, even if it looks ugly. That's why computers are sometimes ok with making weakening pawn moves -- if you can't take advantage of the weakness, what good is it?

    So I think in one sense you shouldn't trust everything it says -- but you should also have a lot of regard for its opinion too -- most of the time -- not all of the time -- it is seeing a (critical) variation that you aren't. If it makes an anti-positional move, it's usually because it doesn't think it can be exploited, perhaps because there is too much dynamism in the position.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #172

    harun2020

    [COMMENT DELETED]
  • 2 years ago · Quote · #173

    ChristianSoldier007

    actually harun, one is going right now. it is public voting though

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #174

    kingofwhite

    LegoPirateSenior wrote:
    PrawnEatsPrawn wrote:

    Humans have no chance against good software/good hardware combinations, at any time control.

    PEP, in the position below, white has a completely, 100% winning move. A human player found it OTB. I am curious how long will it take for your setup to find it.

     

    Can you please give more details and analysis on the position posted? Yace for example finds Qd5 right away, but it doesn't look like it's won in any way for white.

    What are the next moves? If you actually did the analysis to back up what you said it will be easy to post...

    After Qd5 and exd5, how do you secure that win? Rf1 doesn't seem to do anything, really... let's play it move by move here... you tell the winning move and I tell the reply.

    All this does is draw...

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #176

    LegoPirateSenior

    @kingofwhite - I think you made a typo: Qd5 does not win. 24.Qxe5 does, and after fxe5, 25.Rf1 indeed is necessary. 

    I mostly relied on analysis that can be found on the web.  I've just added two relevant links to the game page: http://www.chess.com/games/view.html?id=53873 

    When analyzing this position with an engine, I recall that you need to play maybe another 10 plies into the game before the engine sees a win for white. Backtracking will then maintain a winning evaluation until you run out of hash.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #177

    -Est-

    the best way to find engines weakness is by playing the kingindian. it evaluates it around +0.5 since white has space advantage + the center, but as u go through the middle game it often changes it's evaluation when black attack gets stronger. ofcourse the engines dont understand some positional things and that is why they beat each other! i am 100% sure that i am much stonger than any engine if i use my reybka. it is highly unlikely but possible for a human to beat an engine in correspondence but i am sure it would never happen OTB since noone would be able to be that accurate. i am pretty sure the best player now would not be able to win Houdini down a tempo OTB.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #178

    kingofwhite

    Mr. Pfren, you are saying yourself that "Houdini gave an evaluation difference of...", which means you were using it as well.

    It's not the first time you misinterpret the topic: it's human vs. machine, not human+machine vs. machine. I have to assume this is voluntary because I credit you with a lot more logic than that.

    With time to test for tactical errors (with a machine), the "inequality" human + machine > machine proves that (I know, it's oversimplifying) human > 0.

    You have to acknowledge the true topic and let it rest. And the fact that GMs would only take on an engine for financial motivation... if they could easily beat engines they would do it to shut everyone up. If chess engines were so bad, the #1 correspondence player would not have given up his hobby due to this phenomenon. If correspondence chess was so great, how come we find all sorts of errors in older correspondence games?

    Please, just please...

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #180

    ElKitch

    I read the whole topic and watched the games posted. Nice and interesting.


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