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  • 2 years ago · Quote · #21

    waffllemaster

    nameno1had wrote:

    I have often wondered if games at the longest time lengths ever get adjourned overnight. I have a hard time believing they would relegate themselves to only one match per day necessarily. I had considered the possibility of a player memorizing the last position and going to their hotel room and figuring things out. I am sure both would do it. It could still help to produce a result that wasn't otherwise going to happen. I am rather ignorant to how major tournaments between GM's are conducted. I welcome your thoughts...

    Before computers, of course this happened, and it was expected.  You see this in annotations to games all the time e.g. ____ sealed their 41st move and we adjourned.  Fischer was upset at some game because his opponent's assistants (seconds) analysed the position for the opponent all night while the opponent had a nice dinner and got a good amount of sleep.

    BTW I can't believe there exists a GM that would have to make a conscious effort to "memorize" a position before adjournament.  In fact I would hardly believe an 1800 could fail to recall an ajourned game position a few hours later if he had just spent the last 5 hours playing that game.  (and likely he could still recall it months later heh)

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #22

    waffllemaster

    You remembered it better than I did :p

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #23

    nameno1had

    Thanks for the insight guys. I just try play this game sometimes. I don't have the time and dedication to eat, sleep, breathe and dream chess...

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #24

    Estragon

    chesspooljuly13 wrote:

    I think the USCF and ICCF stopped allowing adjournments after computers became good at chess. You could obviously have a rule that said players couldn't consult chess programs during adjournments but it'd be impossible to enforce. Just like it'd be impossible to enforce a rule that said CC players couldn't move the pieces around or consult books or databases.

    Actually, the rule is against any outside help, and it was the same back then.  It was never enforced.  And no one objected to the strongest players having their seconds work out the adjournments UNTIL engines became strong enough to level that playing field.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #25

    Estragon

    DougAshcroft wrote:

    I remember reading years ago about a World Championship Match (I think between Fischer and Petrosian or Spassky) where it was adjourned overnight. Whilst the contenders slept their GM aides got to work on the variations and best moves. These were then given to the contender in the morning. I also seem to remember that Fischer refused such help. Anyone give more precise details?

    Fischer never used seconds until the Candidates' Matches in 1971, and even then his seconds were mainly assigned valet tasks.  He did object to the idea of help, since it was against the letter of the Laws of Chess, but also he never trusted anyone else's chess judgement except his own.

    So to the extent he analyzed adjourned positions with anyone else, the second might be allowed to suggest an occasional try, but generally was expected to STFU and fetch the juice refills.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #26

    chesspooljuly13

    The famous - and only - clash between Botvinnik and Fischer took place at the Varna Olympiad in 1962 featured that exact scenario.

    Botvinnik, then the world champion and playing white, and Fischer, then 19 years old, adjourned a game that Botvinnik seemed destined to lose.

    But Botvinnik enlisted help from a team of GMs, including Tal, who found a draw through counter-intuitive moves.

    The game is really interesting. Fischer played the Gruenfeld Defense and Botvinnik had a steamroller of central pawns so powerful it looked like Fischer's pieces were going to be pushed off the board. But Fischer found a saving (resourceful) move *at the board* that Botvinnik had missed *in home preparation* and gained a pawn and the initiative. It looked like Fischer was going to win the game (but he didn't.)

    Imagine, though, the uproar that would have ensued if Fischer beat the world champion with the black pieces? It almost happened!

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #27

    chesspooljuly13

    I remember one of the Byrne brothers (forget which one) was working as Fischer's second at some tournament and complained to a Russian second that he didn't know what he had been hired for; said Fischer refused to look at his analysis lol

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #28

    chesspooljuly13

    Estragon wrote:

    chesspooljuly13 wrote:

    I think the USCF and ICCF stopped allowing adjournments after computers became good at chess. You could obviously have a rule that said players couldn't consult chess programs during adjournments but it'd be impossible to enforce. Just like it'd be impossible to enforce a rule that said CC players couldn't move the pieces around or consult books or databases.

    Actually, the rule is against any outside help, and it was the same back then.  It was never enforced.  And no one objected to the strongest players having their seconds work out the adjournments UNTIL engines became strong enough to level that playing field.

    I guess the theory behind not enforcing the rule against outside help from seconds is the seconds are weaker chess players and wouldn't find anything the tournament or match player could not have found if he stayed up most or all of the night. So, at least theoretically, the help isn't really help at all. It just gives the match or tournament player a chance to sleep. I think it'd be different if two players rated 1800 had 2600+ GMs as seconds - then it's really the GMs playing out the adjourned position and not the 1800s. Conversely, who'd object to seconds rated 1200-1300 working on an adjourned position of two 1800 players? All it does is give the 1800s a chance to sleep

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #29

    summersolstice

    N2UHC wrote:
    AlucardII wrote:

     After all, we won't have that option when playing OTB! :P

    A friend of mine who I play OTB and on here joked that when playing OTB, we'd both have to have small analysis boards to the side to work out moves on.

    I had a similar conversation with someone I play OTB and on here and we joked about it as well:D and about how it could prepare you form OTB:D

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #30

    Master_Po

    Chesspool's story about Fischer as black and Botvinnick - interesting story.  And Bot had help from Tal??!! and other GM's?    I'd consider THAT cheating! 
    What a crock!  I didn't know things like that went on.  So today, they play a game completely out?  without any breaks or adjournments?  (what with Houdini, etc) 

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #31

    chesspooljuly13

    I'm pretty sure they play the whole game out now, though players can get up to take breaks (with their clocks running.) One of the disputes that arose in the Kramnik/Topalov match was Kramnik's frequent bathroom breaks. Topalov accused him of using a computer in the bathroom while Kramnik (I think) said he was smoking cigarettes.

    I'm 99.9 percent certain Tal was among the GMs that helped Botvinnik find the draw in the Fischer game, but think it was actually Geller who found the saving resource. That really is a great game to play out.

    Of all the Fischer games, the Botvinnik/Fischer clash and game 13 of the Spassky/Fischer match are my two favorite to play over on a board. Game 3 of Spassky/Fischer is also interesting but mostly (for me) because of the conditions that preceded it. Fischer was down 2-0 in the match and was playing black in game 3 against an opponent he had never beaten before. And he won with the Modern Benoni!

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #32

    nameno1had

    DougAshcroft wrote: Fischer was GREAT! What a tragedy that he deteriorated into verbal abuse instead of staying cool. What are your thoughts could he have beaten Kasparov? I think it would have been a war between Kasparov, Fischer and Karpov. It actually could have made this sports as exciting as it had ever been. The crazier thing is, it is completely possible that Fischer would have baffled them both for awhile. Kasparov would have most likely given him all he would have wanted once the 1980's arrived.
  • 2 years ago · Quote · #33

    Master_Po

    Yeah, I'm still trying to wean myself away from it.  It's a crutch no doubt.


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