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Is there any chance that a 1300 rated player can beat a 2700 rated player?

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Coach_Valentin

Yes, there's a chance -- if the 2700-rated player is asleep, or in a strong charitable mode Wink, or if the 1300-rated player is incorrectly rated (and really ought to be 2500+).  Otherwise, the chance of a brick falling from the sky to hit your head is higher, so don't bet on it (if you want to keep your money, that is).

Elubas

Yet again, it seems some people are confusing extremely low chance, with impossibility.

waffllemaster
_valentin_ wrote:

Yes, there's a chance -- if the 2700-rated player is asleep, or in a strong charitable mode , or if the 1300-rated player is incorrectly rated (and really ought to be 2500+).  Otherwise, the chance of a brick falling from the sky to hit your head is higher, so don't bet on it (if you want to keep your money, that is).

2700 > 2500 Kiss

Tmb86

It's you who's misunderstanding probability, Estragon. The monkey thing is a case in point. It would probably take the monkeys longer than the age of the universe to re-create Shakespeare - but the fact of the matter is, since the probability of it occuring is non-zero, it will eventually happen. 

The odds of winning the lottery is about 1 in 14 million, yet people win it every week.

Coach_Valentin

Tmb86:  Please re-read Estragon's argument carefully.  The essence of it is that Shakespeare and chess aren't subject to randomness -- rather, they are governed by skill.  If it was all randomness (as is the case with lottery), then there's a small practical chance indeed.  

But true randomness implies uniform probability distribution (i.e., the chance of one outcome is exactly the same as the chance of any other individual outcome).  This is true about the lottery -- the chance of one number (or a set of numbers) coming up, given that we have no extra information, is exactly the same as the chance of any other number (or set of numbers).  

However, this same argument cannot be applied with Shakespeare and chess -- because the chance of winning a game depends on executing a sequence of strong moves (at least stronger than your opponent's).  While a single strong move here and there might just come up for the beginner, it won't suffice in the end for winning, because the game is cumulative, i.e., the moves are not independent the same way that the numbers in the lottery are.

So I suggest studying some probability theory first before commenting on the subject of it!

rooperi

I'm kind of with estragon here. Just because there is a non-zero probability doesn't mean there is a 100% actuality.

The number of events (whatever probability) which will never occur is infinitely larger than the number of events which will.

kco
Tmb86 wrote:

(edit)
The odds of winning the lottery is about 1 in 14 million, yet people win it every week.

this does not make sense, is doesn't matter how often the lotto is draw is still 1 in 14 million chance of winning it.

Fear_ItseIf

Near Zero

waffllemaster

If the players play in such a way that their skill is separated by 1400 points, then the chance to win is zero.  Not very very small, but zero.

But in practice people play above and below their ratings, are not rated correctly in the first place, do not play all positions equally well, etc.  In practical terms it's a very small chance, but it's not zero.

zborg

Spoken with the precision of a true engineer.  Thanks.

@Estragon has his point too.  Not sure if the OP ever had one.  Smile

Tmb86

I liked your post, Valentin (just a touch rude with the last line). Now I'm no probability theorist - I grant you, but I picked up a thing or two during my degree. 

What your post makes painfully evident you don't understand (hey look, I can be rude too!) is that while you might think the sequence of letters involved in the works of Shakespeare are particularly 'skilled', and therefore improbable - the fact is they are exactly as (un)likely as any other sequence of characters of the same length. 

Did you know if you flip a coin 10 times, the sequence HHHHHHHHHH is just as likely as HTTHHTTTHT? Well, obviously you didn't, but it is. On every flip the probability of either outcome is 0.5, and that doesn't change because of the previous outcome. Do you see the point here?

I'll outline it for you, it's exactly the same with chess. The only difference between chess and the coin toss is that, as an estimation, there are on average 30 'bad' moves in a position and maybe only 2 'good' ones. So it's kind of like flipping a coin with 30 faces. A particular sequence of a 45 move game with entirely 'good' moves is just as improbable as a particular sequence of a 45 'bad' move game. The reason you will be waiting a long time to see the 'good' game, is that they are much less numerous than the possible 'bad' games.

Keep playing great chess mate.

 

rooperi
Tmb86 wrote:...

I'll outline it for you, it's exactly the same with chess. The only difference between chess and the coin toss is that, as an estimation, there are on average 30 'bad' moves in a position and maybe only 2 'good' ones. So it's kind of like flipping a coin with 30 faces. Do you see what I mean? And a particular sequence of a 45 move game with entirely 'good' moves is just as improbable as a particular sequence of a 45 'bad' move game. The reason you will be waiting a long time to see the 'good' game, is that they are much less numerous than the possible 'bad' games.

Keep playing great chess mate.

 

with the added complication that in a completely random situation your 30 sided coin has a 1/30 chance of hitting the good move every time, while the 1300 player would often actively discard this move. 1300's are drawn to inferior moves like GM's are drawn to good ones.

x-5058622868

The problem with your probability is that there is an outside influence on those moves. That influence is the chess player and the player's skill level. 

Tmb86

That's interesting, rooperi. Personally I was envisioning a random move generator, but now the question becomes who would beat a GM quicker, a random move generator, or a 1300. Lol.

VLaurenT
rooperi wrote:
Tmb86 wrote:...

I'll outline it for you, it's exactly the same with chess. The only difference between chess and the coin toss is that, as an estimation, there are on average 30 'bad' moves in a position and maybe only 2 'good' ones. So it's kind of like flipping a coin with 30 faces. Do you see what I mean? And a particular sequence of a 45 move game with entirely 'good' moves is just as improbable as a particular sequence of a 45 'bad' move game. The reason you will be waiting a long time to see the 'good' game, is that they are much less numerous than the possible 'bad' games.

Keep playing great chess mate.

 

with the added complication that in a completely random situation your 30 sided coin has a 1/30 chance of hitting the good move every time, while the 1300 player would often actively discard this move. 1300's are drawn to inferior moves like GM's are drawn to good ones.

...and as using a dice is prohibited by the rules, the 1300 player still has a long way to go to get his (1/30)^40 chance to draw the game Wink

x-5058622868

It's a draw. The answer is neither.

Conflagration_Planet
_valentin_ wrote:

Tmb86:  Please re-read Estragon's argument carefully.  The essence of it is that Shakespeare and chess aren't subject to randomness -- rather, they are governed by skill.  If it was all randomness (as is the case with lottery), then there's a small practical chance indeed.  

But true randomness implies uniform probability distribution (i.e., the chance of one outcome is exactly the same as the chance of any other individual outcome).  This is true about the lottery -- the chance of one number (or a set of numbers) coming up, given that we have no extra information, is exactly the same as the chance of any other number (or set of numbers).  

However, this same argument cannot be applied with Shakespeare and chess -- because the chance of winning a game depends on executing a sequence of strong moves (at least stronger than your opponent's).  While a single strong move here and there might just come up for the beginner, it won't suffice in the end for winning, because the game is cumulative, i.e., the moves are not independent the same way that the numbers in the lottery are.

So I suggest studying some probability theory first before commenting on the subject of it!

It's subject to randomness in the sense that the monkeys would eventually make the right key strokes geven an infinite amount of time. Same with chess. Given an infinite amount of time, the patzer would eventually make the winning moves even if it's by dumb luck.

Tmb86

I've seen Valentin's mistake made countless times, pointing out that a sequence of 10 heads is as probable as 10 other tosses is usually enough to help people understand.

Still, he did get to use the phrase 'uniform probability distribution', and tell me I should study probability, so that's something I guess.

I wonder if he's the kind of guy who can admit when he's very arrogantly said something which is wrong...

Conflagration_Planet
Tmb86 wrote:

I've seen Valentin's mistake made countless times, pointing out that 10 heads is as probable as 10 other tosses is usually enough to help people understand.

Still, he did get to use the phrase 'uniform probability distribution', and tell me I should study probability, so that's something I guess.

Some people refuse to, even then. They just can't understand that the moves that make a great chess game, and the letters that make up Shakespear's writings have no meaning except to humans, and could occur randomly just like anything else, and would, given a long enough time.

x-5058622868

The probability is so miniscule that it won't happen. One set of chess moves and bunch of letters does not affect the probability for other sets of chess moves and bunches of letters. So if you hit every other combination of coin flips, does not mean the one combination missed will be coming up next or soon.