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NY Times: World Title without Top GMS?


  • 14 months ago · Quote · #21

    mrguy888

    When you look at interviews and stuff before and after he really went bonkers, it is clear he was a lot less sane than the next guy.

  • 14 months ago · Quote · #22

    trysts

    mrguy888 wrote:

    When you look at interviews and stuff before and after he really went bonkers, it is clear he was a lot less sane than the next guy.

    I would not characterize Fischer's thinking as "bonkers", but I would say I don't agree with it.

  • 14 months ago · Quote · #23

    mrguy888

    I would call thinking that the Jews were after him and in control of everything and that 9/11 was wonderful was bonkers.

  • 14 months ago · Quote · #24

    Greenmtnboy

    One thing that sent him over the edge was having his storage locker auctioned off.  That has happened to many people. 

  • 14 months ago · Quote · #25

    trysts

    mrguy888 wrote:

    I would call thinking that the Jews were after him and in control of everything and that 9/11 was wonderful was bonkers.

    Okay, but we don't know what he means by "the Jews were after him". Who knows, maybe a Jewish person said this to him and he believed it. Could just be ignorance. Could be that he was ahead of the Internet crowd who think the Jews run the world based upon the Israeli influence in U.S. foreign policy, the weird Zionists and their history, and people thinking that Judaism is more than a belief that people have, but rather, it's some race of evil people{Of course, it could be some Christian/Jew argument which has been going on for centuries}.

    He definitely was a jerk about 9/11. In fact, he was such a jerk about it that I'm not going to argue about the word, "bonkers", describing his behaviour.

  • 14 months ago · Quote · #26

    rigamagician

    "The first time in the modern world chess championships’ history that the match between the legitimate champion and a legitimate candidate won’t be a fight for the title of the strongest chess player in the world." - Garry Kasparov

    This makes it sound like Kasparov believes that players who lose the qualifying rounds or refuse to play should be given a chance to play in the final.  In the 2010 Candidates tournament, Carlsen declined to play, and Grischuk knocked out Aronian and Kramnik in the quarterfinal and semi-final respectively.  Anand is the defending champion who beat Topalov in 2010.  If you want a shot at the final, I think it's only common sense that you need to win in the qualifying rounds.

    Also it wouldn't have been that strange for there have to been a world championship match between Fischer and Korchnoi in 1969 or say Botvinnik and Capablanca in 1937.

  • 14 months ago · Quote · #27

    mrguy888

    Kasparov has been known to make some crazy claims. I think it has to do with having a big ego from being the best chess player in the world for such a long time, personally.

    It is like the time he claimed that history needs rewritten because of some wacky claims he got from a book of questionable sources. Just chuckle at him and you can leave it at that. What else is there to do?

  • 14 months ago · Quote · #28

    trysts

    mrguy888 wrote:

    Kasparov has been known to make some crazy claims. I think it has to do with having a big ego from being the best chess player in the world for such a long time, personally.

    It is like the time he claimed that history needs rewritten because of some wacky claims he got from a book of questionable sources. Just chuckle at him and you can leave it at that. What else is there to do?

    History is constantly being rewritten just because of the disclosure of the propaganda of those in power.

  • 14 months ago · Quote · #29

    mrguy888

    I'm not going down that conversation path with you, trysts.

    The Kasparov article was crazy enough that even you would probably laugh at it, though, but who knows?

  • 14 months ago · Quote · #30

    fabelhaft

    Estragon wrote:

    Chessmetrics is a joke.  Look at the ratings they estimate for all the also-ran masters of earlier times.  Hyper-inflated, and ridiculous.

    In fact there have been any number of matches NOT between the world's top players.  Alekhine played Bogoljubov twice when Capa was clearly the main challenger.  Rubenstein and Keres were both at least second in the world for part of their careers, but neither got a match.  Fischer withdrew from the 1969 cycle, the top two players at the time were him and Spassky, so the title match would have been missing one of them.  Also in 1975, Fischer was clearly better than Korchnoi.

    To me the rankings at Chessmetrics are in general believable (in cases like Euwe being top five several years in a row in the middle of the 1930s). Since the rating system punishes inactivity Lasker fell out of the list a few times and players like Janowski and Maroczy reached #1 when Lasker was a much stronger player, but the same thing would happen today with the Elo system.

    Maybe Kasparov's (dubious) point is that there's a case to make for the winner of previous title matches being the strongest player in the world at the time of the match. If Fischer was stronger than Korchnoi in 1975 is of no significance since there was no title match. Maybe he was stronger than Korchnoi in 1978, but Korchnoi had improved while Fischer didn't play since 1972, and before that their head to head score was even.

    But it's clear that not all title matches have been between the two strongest players, maybe Kasparov's use of "legitimate challengers" suggests that Janowski, Schlechter, Bogo etc weren't "legitimate challengers" in the way Gelfand is through winning the qualification.

  • 14 months ago · Quote · #31

    sapientdust

    mrguy888 wrote:
    trysts wrote:
    joeydvivre wrote:

    Second off, in more modern times, when Karpov got his title does anybody seriously believe that he could have beaten Fischer?  

    Fischer hadn't played any tournaments for three years, so by 1975, I think he seriously could have lost against Karpov. 

                                                Anybody

    IIRC the opinion of Kasparov is that Fischer would have been the favourite had the match taken place but the next and subsiquent matches would have favoured Karpov.

    Karpov has also said that Fischer was the favorite.

  • 14 months ago · Quote · #32

    mrguy888

    Karpov definately proved himself a more than worthy champion, though, not that anyne doubts that.

  • 14 months ago · Quote · #33

    fabelhaft

    rigamagician wrote:

    "The first time in the modern world chess championships’ history that the match between the legitimate champion and a legitimate candidate won’t be a fight for the title of the strongest chess player in the world." - Garry Kasparov

    This makes it sound like Kasparov believes that players who lose the qualifying rounds or refuse to play should be given a chance to play in the final.

    He does say that Gelfand is the legitimate Candidate and that he won't be seen as the strongest chess player in the world if he wins the match, not that he should be replaced by an "illegitimate" challenger. Anand might still be seen as the strongest player in the world by many, but he won't prove that by beating Gelfand, it would be another thing if he could win at least one tournament against stronger opposition but it's been many years since the last time that happened and at the moment I see Carlsen and Aronian as stronger players than Anand.

  • 14 months ago · Quote · #34

    bigpoison

    joeydvivre wrote:

    "It is “the first time in the modern world chess championships’ history that the match between the legitimate champion and a legitimate candidate won’t be a fight for the title of the strongest chess player in the world,”

    from Kasparov is a load of crap.

    First off, is there anybody who thinks that Max Euwe was the strongest player in the world ever?  Euwe's amazing win is like Bob Beamon's long jump and Roger Maris 1961 baseball season - amazing achievements out of nowhere that fairly give them recognition by Euwe was never the strongest player in the world, Beamon was never the best long-jumper, and Maris was never the home run king.

    Second off, in more modern times, when Karpov got his title does anybody seriously believe that he could have beaten Fischer?  He was giving up more than 100 rating points.  Karpov was a great champion but in 1975, he was outmatched by Fischer.  Now if Fischer had kept playing by about 1980 or so things would have gotten interesting between him and Karpov.


    I hate the Yankees...but, Roger Maris was clearly the "home run king" for 37 years! 

  • 14 months ago · Quote · #35

    DaBigOne

    joeydvivre wrote:

    Aw...poof

    So what if Fischer hadn't played in a few years?  How long did Kamsky take off from playing chess and is he any worse now for it?  It's not like he forgot anything (Fischer remembered everything...).  I've taken years off from playing chess.  It takes a few weeks to get things back together but that's all.  It's not like running or something where you get fat..

    Yeah, but Fischer stopped playing for 20 years. And also, we're all amateurs (or most of us). Fischer was the World Champion, wouldn't it be harder to get back all his chess skill? It took a few weeks for you, but imagine how much time it would take for Fischer to get back all his skill.

  • 14 months ago · Quote · #36

    Phelon

    Im sorry but all the blitz deciding matches in the candidates tournament made a mockery of the world championship. Its like the world champ is facing off against the world blitz champ.

  • 14 months ago · Quote · #37

    blake78613

    I don't know how anyone can claim that the Karpov vs. Timman World Championship match in 1992 was between the two strongest chess players.

  • 14 months ago · Quote · #38

    Winnie_Pooh

    Whatever is the truth about Euwe, Karpov, Fischer etc. stays hidden in the past. The baseline of the NYT article is correct - A WC match between the number 4 and the number 22 is quite ridiculous.

    Maybe FIDE should rename this match to "World Championship U 2800" Wink

  • 14 months ago · Quote · #39

    Phelon

    When they had to play head to head with time to prepare for each other, Fischer was clearly better, despite Spassky having all the soviet players to help him prepare and come up with ideas to try against Fischer.

  • 14 months ago · Quote · #40

    rigamagician

    Karpov and Kasparov's first game.  The two games they played at the 4 Teams Match-Tournament at Moscow 1981 were 41-44 moves long.  In their encounter at Moscow International 1981, Karpov's 10...Bf5 was a theoretical novelty at the time.  The game lasted 18 moves.


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