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This game was played in the 1800s, I don't think there was any patterns to study.
Well, that's just wrong. All the strong players in the 1800's were familiar with a great many tactical patterns. Some tactical patterns had already been studied and categorized as early as the 16th century. The basic pattern at the heart of this combination--the Bishop on the long diagonal and the Nh6+ hitting g8 and f7--had been widely known for at least a century when this game was played,.
Thanks for the information. I have another question, should the tactical games of the 1800s or should I study the games of the great positional players?
It seems if you are in a unfamiliar position you half to calculate, but when you play something a lot, you know the tactics. That is why it is good to learn opening theory. The position I showed is unusual because it is a very unusual tactic.That is why I got it wrong on my first try. That is why you should study tactics. My weakness is not tactics or openings(I am trying to seriously memorize openings in my repertoire and my tactics are super strong) but the nothing to do positions (that includes endgames). Here is my question, do strong players use pattern recognition for the nothing to do positions, and if not, how do they do it?
First, if your live standard rating is under 1600. You're not "super strong" in tactics. That's ok, I"m not either. No one who below master level is.
Second, the number of positions where there is "nothing to do" is very, very small. There's always tactical shots to take, sometimes the tactics don't win a piece, they are merely a threat to win a positional concession, but they're still tactics.
And that's what folks in the "not yet master" club don't get. When my coach walks me through those "do nothing" positions he explains every move in terms of the tactical issues at hand. And the very fact that we don't see the tactical ideas and instead see a "do nothing position" unless they're explained is pretty much why we're not that good at this game.
When I mean nothing to do, I mean positions in (for instance) the Caro-Can.
P.S. I am strong in tactics, but am very weak in endgames and slow positions.
There is a tremendous amount to be learned from studying the games of the 19th century greats. This was an era of great tactical play and the art of defense was not as advanced as it it today. Players like Morphy, Anderssen, and the young Steintiz could really make the pieces dance.
It may be that the great attacking games of the 19th century, and the games of the first great masters of positional play: Tarrasch, Rubinstein, and Capablanca are really more rewarding to study. Because their opponents were a bit behind them is understanding, you get to see brilliant combinations and great strategic ideas in action
Not really sure what the point of that posted position was...except perhaps to indicate that these sorts of distinctions are rather specious (as is usually the case).
Actually, I didn't quite get the point of that puzzle being posted either. It was interesting...but, it seemed, hardly unique.
"Can't a mid level player get an answer that is quite good?"
You mean the line you gave that was just equal? Besides being equal (not good), that's pretty bad considering there's a forced win. The point of the puzzle is to exploit / learn a pattern. You just forced a few trades :p
Well, orange, you don't have to stick your tongue out at people. But, if you do...then do it right:
Anyway, no...I was speaking in general. I didn't claim that I got the puzzle right...not in the sense of the forced win. I play OK...but I don't claim to be world class.
At chesstempo...on some puzzles, if you get a quite decent answer but not the very best, they don't sound a buzzer and stick you in a dunking chair. They say: "Good...but keep looking".
I am not a bullet player. Rapid is as fast as I want to go. I don't want to play "flash card chess" (I just coined that term)...I want to spend a little bit of time...maybe even a whopping 30 seconds...on thinking and calculating.
I haven't played bullet chess in awhile (wont show my old games, so I don't know how long it's been), and it's usually junk moves I agree. Much more satisfying are long games, but I don't have the patience online. I like to play with 10 or 15 minutes with at least 5 second add on for casual games.
And two hours a day is great, I wish I could discipline myself to do that, but I'm lazy right now :)
10 or 15 is exactly what I prefer...not too hot and not too cold. Those elongated correspondence games are, to me, what is the word...anathematic?...just as are the 5 min. and under.
Yeah, you read that before I edited it out. Yes, two hours per day...playing and studying. But then, I am retired, For forty years, I had been away from chess...the usual stuff, university, family, business.
Now I can do whatever I want when I get up in the morning. Chess is part of that.
The point of the puzzle is to exploit / learn a pattern.
I have no idea what you mean. That was quite a remarkable, once-in-a-lifetime solution (so I don't know what e4nf3 means either). It has nothing to do with patterns, near as I can tell (unless maybe you're a 4000 player).
I saw it as a calculation. And, I agree, unless you are a 4,000 player...the pattern recognition seems problematic.
I did a "seat of the pants" calculation. It was not the precise answer...which is understandable since I am not a world class player...but what I decided was playable.
I'll tell you all something. On tactics trainer here, I am having a tough time at the moment. I had been getting up to about 1775...real close to my goal of 1800. Then, something happened...
You can't reset the tally anymore. And, they changed the puzzles. I think that I was getting accustomed to pattern recognition on the given puzzles and was also seeing repeats.
The new puzzles seem tougher...five move, intricate combos on 1200 rated puzzles, for example. And, they are teasers. Many/most of the puzzles where you'd recognize a pattern...well, there is a pernicious twist (don't get me wrong...I like a challenge). You knee jerk your moves from pattern recognition and you get the buzzer and strapped into the dunking chair. Close doesn't even win you a cigar.
Too, the time controls are for blitzers. Take an extra 10 or 20 seconds and you will also get strapped into the dunking chair.
Am I complaining? Yeah...somewhat. But I'm gonna get back up to 1800...no question about it. I am more of a calculator than a pattern recognizer...and I play rapid, but not blitz/bullet.
So...I've gotta get better and faster. And, I will.
Are these tactic trainer problems realistic? Sure...at higher level tournament play. In real life...I don't know about you guys, but I tend to need a little more than 30 frickin' seconds to do a five move combo and where I am in the dunking chair for only winning a Q but having done so at the expense of not having gotten a mate.
Jerks. These guys are jerks...those who put together these tactics. Oh, sure...they will say it is this "pool" thing. That's all subterfuge for their being jerks.
I will have the last laugh, though. What doesn't kill me makes me stronger.
When did you notice the new puzzles show up? I've been delinquent in my TT the last week or so. The peasants revolted a few months ago when they downloaded 100,000 new tactics all at once - they were mostly broken and/or completely uncalibrated so it wreaked havoc. They didn't do that again, did they? In any case, good on you for the last laugh attitude :-)
I've noticed a change going back several weeks ago. Saying that, when I do the current tactics, I notice that the comments go back two years or so. This would mean, to me, that these may be old puzzles recycled.
Could someone help us, please:)
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