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Pre-Noting Moves


  • 23 months ago · Quote · #41

    Martin_Stahl

    I should note, there is one difference between USCF and FIDE there. In FIDE if only one player is under 5 minutes the other player still has to keep score. For the USCF, neither player has to.

  • 23 months ago · Quote · #42

    rooperi

    Ah, ok.

  • 23 months ago · Quote · #43

    LJM_III

    If you stop recording moves before a time control and then start again after reaching the time control, is there a way to record the position at the time control? Unless you memorize all the unrecorded moves, it seems like the scoresheet after the time control wouldn't make sense. (I couldn't memorize more than a few moves, but maybe there's no problem at higher levels.)

  • 23 months ago · Quote · #44

    LJM_III

    Also, is there a rule regarding correcting mistakes on the scoresheet? When playing black, I've made mistakes like confusing a5 and h4. (I suppose that's another problem that doesn't occur at higher levels.)

  • 23 months ago · Quote · #45

    BorgQueen

    uri65 wrote:
    BorgQueen wrote:

    Really?  Maybe you could enlighten me as to which question was answered in my own post and by what words it was answered...

    You give few examples of cases when taking notes is OK or almost OK or may be OK. So when I see my opponent taking notes do you suggest me to go into detailed discussion with him and TD what kind of notes, is it fair or unfair, OK or not OK? I don't want to spend my time on this nonsense and that's the very clear reason behind FIDE rule.

    Thank you :-)

  • 23 months ago · Quote · #46

    Martin_Stahl

    LJM_III wrote:

    If you stop recording moves before a time control and then start again after reaching the time control, is there a way to record the position at the time control? Unless you memorize all the unrecorded moves, it seems like the scoresheet after the time control wouldn't make sense. (I couldn't memorize more than a few moves, but maybe there's no problem at higher levels.)

    Well, for FIDE purposes, if only one player is in time trouble, then they would just borrow the score sheet to update it accordingly, on their own time. If both are in time trouble, the regulations reads that an arbiter or an assistant can keep score until the time control is met and then then the scores can be updated using that sheet.

    In USCF rules, the score sheets have to be updated (rule 15F), though 15F3 allow that the game score may not be possible to correct and the position should be diagrammed and score kept from that point on and 15F4 allows that it may not be needd to reconstruct if the next time control is sudden death.

  • 23 months ago · Quote · #47

    Martin_Stahl

    LJM_III wrote:

    Also, is there a rule regarding correcting mistakes on the scoresheet? When playing black, I've made mistakes like confusing a5 and h4. (I suppose that's another problem that doesn't occur at higher levels.)

    Yes, 13C7 (USCF) has a "Definition of resonably complete score sheet" that is used when claims are made. It mainly deals with missing moves or move pairs and requires that there be no more than three missing or incomplete move pairs.

    It goes into more detail but the other piece that is pertient to your question is as follows: "Minor ambiguities in scorerkeeping or errors involving no more than one symbol are of no consequence."

    Based on that, I would say a minor error like you posted wouldn't have no bearing on using the sheet for completeness sake and the error would be easy enough to fix if going over it, especially in conjunction with your opponents score sheet.

    In a quick skim of the FIDE rules, they don't seem to think people make errors in score keeping :D

  • 23 months ago · Quote · #48

    LJM_III

    Under USCF rules, are there directions for diagramming the position after the time control? For example, would players stop the clock and make one diagram, or would I draw my own diagram on my time?

    I'll probably never play outside of the USCF rules, but I'll ask about the FIDE rules just out of curiosity. If both players are in time trouble, are they supposed to stop the clock while they find an arbiter or assistant to keep score? After the time control, do the players stop the clock to update their scoresheets?

    Thanks for the information. I haven't been able to find the rules online.

  • 23 months ago · Quote · #49

    BorgQueen

    OMG that is certainly not the case here... when I had the job of entering scoresheets into a database, I found they were quite rife with errors!

  • 23 months ago · Quote · #50

    rooperi

    I often made a mistake of skipping one half move, with my and opponent's move ending up on the wrong sides.

    It's a nightmare to fix, and looks like a dog's breakast. Used to do that at least once per tournament.

  • 23 months ago · Quote · #51

    BorgQueen

    A lot of people do that ;-)

  • 23 months ago · Quote · #52

    Martin_Stahl

    BorgQueen wrote:

    OMG that is certainly not the case here... when I had the job of entering scoresheets into a database, I found they were quite rife with errors!

    It only comes into play when there are claims made; failure to make time control or draw claims for example.

  • 23 months ago · Quote · #53

    Martin_Stahl

    LJM_III wrote:

    Under USCF rules, are there directions for diagramming the position after the time control? For example, would players stop the clock and make one diagram, or would I draw my own diagram on my time?

    I'll probably never play outside of the USCF rules, but I'll ask about the FIDE rules just out of curiosity. If both players are in time trouble, are they supposed to stop the clock while they find an arbiter or assistant to keep score? After the time control, do the players stop the clock to update their scoresheets?

    Thanks for the information. I haven't been able to find the rules online.

    USCF rules aren't currently online, that I know of. I heard there was a legal PDF floating around somewhere but I haven't seen it yet (haven't searched too hard either). The rules updates PDF is online, but isn't useful without the rest of the information.

    As to diagramming, it just says a clear diagram should be made; not real guidance. I probably would use FEN notation for the position if I ran into the issue. Though, the only time the clock would be stopped is if both players needed to complete the score sheet. If only one does, then that player has to do it on their own time before making their next move and they could use their opponent's score sheet (no need to diagram).

    For FIDE, the rules are here: http://www.fide.com/component/handbook/?id=124&view=article

    I'm pretty sure the players would not stop the clock if both were in time trouble. The arbiter does stop the clock after one flag has fallen in that case (8.5a). 8.5c covers if there isn't a complete score sheet (say if the arbiter or assistant was unavailable to keep score) and 8.6 covers if they can't be updated.

  • 23 months ago · Quote · #54

    Estragon

    LJM_III wrote:

    Under USCF rules, are there directions for diagramming the position after the time control? For example, would players stop the clock and make one diagram, or would I draw my own diagram on my time?

    I'll probably never play outside of the USCF rules, but I'll ask about the FIDE rules just out of curiosity. If both players are in time trouble, are they supposed to stop the clock while they find an arbiter or assistant to keep score? After the time control, do the players stop the clock to update their scoresheets?

    Thanks for the information. I haven't been able to find the rules online.

    Those are old rules for adjournments.  The only reason for diagramming the position was to seal a move to adjourn.  Because all OTB play is to a conclusion these days, the old rules no longer apply.

    The way it USED to work was the player NOT on move prepared the envelope listing the round #, players, player on move and move #, as well as a diagram of the adjourned position.  When the player on move was ready, he wrote his move on his scoresheet and sealed it in the envelope and handed it to the arbiter.  It would then be opened at the appointed time for resumption of the game.

  • 23 months ago · Quote · #55

    Martin_Stahl

    The diagramming I mentioned has nothing to do with adjournments. It is is specifically mentioned in the section about notation during time trouble and problems with recreating an accurate score sheet; in this particular case in a situation where at least one player is in time trouble and neither one was notating.

    I don't have the rule book in front of me right now but did when answering the question and pulled the information from there (5th edition USCF rules)

  • 23 months ago · Quote · #56

    Scrap-O-Matic

    Martin_Stahl wrote:

    The diagramming I mentioned has nothing to do with adjournments. It is is specifically mentioned in the section about notation during time trouble and problems with recreating an accurate score sheet; in this particular case in a situation where at least one player is in time trouble and neither one was notating.

    I don't have the rule book in front of me right now but did when answering the question and pulled the information from there (5th edition USCF rules)

    You are talking about rule 15F and the related sub-sections (mainly 15F3).

    The player that was in time trouble is responsible for recreating the scoresheet on his own time.

    If both players were not keeping score then both clocks are stopped while recreating the scoresheet. Additional sets and boards may be used as an aid. However this may not apply if the director rules it unnecessary.

    If it is impossible or unnecessary then a diagram of the position is recorded and the next move played will be considered the first one of the following time control.

  • 23 months ago · Quote · #57

    Martin_Stahl

    Yep, that's the section.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #58

    geoffalford

    Of course, with online chess, it is different. I guess many, like me, have several chess boards set up, where you can experiment with moves in several current games.

    FYI, 12"x12" wooden portabe boards - with magnetic pieces for stabiliy - can be bought over the internet for $30-40. Larger portable sets of 16"x16" (with chess, chequers & backgammon) are around $50-60 - the board folds  up and has carry case handles. 

    http://www.gamesparadise.com.au/classic-board-games/chess-sets?dir=asc&limit=30&order=price

  • 4 days ago · Quote · #59

    sthamburger

    I take notes because of people talking while I am trying to play.


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