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Psychology and Chess

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17th June 2009, 07:48am
#1
by Garymossu
Brooklyn United States
Member Since: Jan 2009
Member Points: 274

Psychology and Chess?  How are they connected?  In more ways than one?  Any examples from Chess to illustrate? 

17th June 2009, 12:31pm
#2
by paul211
Ontario Canada
Member Since: Mar 2008
Member Points: 3141

A prime example was the famous game Fisher Spassky in 1972 played in Reykjavik Iceland, where Bobby Fisher forfeited, did not show for the second game and won upper handed the championship.

do a Google research and I am positive that you will find many examples of pschology used in chess games.

17th June 2009, 12:38pm
#3
by bomtrown
Baltimore, MD United States
Member Since: Mar 2009
Member Points: 799

I have a chess psychology booklist if you are interested.

17th June 2009, 12:40pm
#4
by Kupov
Banff Alberta Canada
Member Since: Sep 2008
Member Points: 1645
paul211 wrote:

A prime example was the famous game Fisher Spassky in 1972 played in Reykjavik Iceland, where Bobby Fisher forfeited, did not show for the second game and won upper handed the championship.

do a Google research and I am positive that you will find many examples of pschology used in chess games.


A lot of people say this and don't seem to realise that there were chess games involved.

17th June 2009, 12:53pm
#5
by Garymossu
Brooklyn United States
Member Since: Jan 2009
Member Points: 274
Kupov wrote:
paul211 wrote:

A prime example was the famous game Fisher Spassky in 1972 played in Reykjavik Iceland, where Bobby Fisher forfeited, did not show for the second game and won upper handed the championship.

do a Google research and I am positive that you will find many examples of pschology used in chess games.


A lot of people say this and don't seem to realise that there were chess games involved.


Laughing Hahah

17th June 2009, 12:54pm
#6
by Garymossu
Brooklyn United States
Member Since: Jan 2009
Member Points: 274
paul211 wrote:

A prime example was the famous game Fisher Spassky in 1972 played in Reykjavik Iceland, where Bobby Fisher forfeited, did not show for the second game and won upper handed the championship.

do a Google research and I am positive that you will find many examples of pschology used in chess games.


How is this psychological?  Please explain.

17th June 2009, 01:08pm
#7
by paul211
Ontario Canada
Member Since: Mar 2008
Member Points: 3141
Kupov wrote:
paul211 wrote:

A prime example was the famous game Fisher Spassky in 1972 played in Reykjavik Iceland, where Bobby Fisher forfeited, did not show for the second game and won upper handed the championship.

do a Google research and I am positive that you will find many examples of pschology used in chess games.


A lot of people say this and don't seem to realise that there were chess games involved.


Yes I do and Fisher more than once in his games used indirect psychology not directed at the opponent, but a lot smarter, asking for conviences or set up changes such as lighting, cameras, private room away from the public.

All of these tactics are psychological one having an effect on your opponent's concentration, whether it be simply annoying which in turn detracts focus and concentration.Why did Spassky say at the end of the championship that Fisher had won the championship even before the games started?

And was Fisher's actions not part of the outcome?

I do not know, but I do use psychology  when playing online against opponents and can tell you that words are a powerful deterrent to concentration.

17th June 2009, 01:10pm
#8
by paul211
Ontario Canada
Member Since: Mar 2008
Member Points: 3141

In other words, when you try to distract your opponent from his concentration on the game at stake, you are using psychological means to try to defeat her/him.

Think about it. You might agree!

17th June 2009, 01:12pm
#9
by Garymossu
Brooklyn United States
Member Since: Jan 2009
Member Points: 274
paul211 wrote:

In other words, when you try to distract your opponent from his concentration on the game at stake, you are using psychological means to try to defeat her/him.

Think about it. You might agree!


Ok.  But this has nothing to do with Chess persay, but with all sports.  I am only interested in Psychology pertaining to Chess itself.

17th June 2009, 01:16pm
#10
by Garymossu
Brooklyn United States
Member Since: Jan 2009
Member Points: 274

"All of these tactics are psychological one having an effect on your opponent's concentration, whether it be simply annoying which in turn detracts focus and concentration.Why did Spassky say at the end of the championship that Fisher had won the championship even before the games started?

And was Fisher's actions not part of the outcome?

I do not know, but I do use psychology  when playing online against opponents and can tell you that words are a powerful deterrent to concentration."

 

This is ridiculous.  This is not Chess.  This is ridiculous.  Be it as it may, i am not interested in this type of thing.  This has nothing to do with Chess.  But trickery...scheming...etc.  So it seems.

18th June 2009, 03:24pm
#11
by paul211
Ontario Canada
Member Since: Mar 2008
Member Points: 3141

I honestly fail to see what part of psychology applies exclusively to playing a chess game.

Whether it be: perception, cognition, emotion, personality, behavior and interpersonal relationships or unconscious mind.

I do not believe that we yet have the tools or equipment necessary to study several if not all sports and games and family dealings and inter-relashionship communications, etc..., to be able to analyse, compare and draw positive conclusions that isolate the gene or thinking process that is exclusive to playing chess.

The analysis does not have to be exhaustive to include every thing under the sun, does have to include chess, but the data base must be large enough to draw unequivoccal conclusions

If anyone has suggestions on the psychology aspect that applies exclusively to chess, it certainly would shed some light on my perception.

18th June 2009, 04:04pm
#12
by Garymossu
Brooklyn United States
Member Since: Jan 2009
Member Points: 274
paul211 wrote:

I honestly fail to see what part of psychology applies exclusively to playing a chess game.

Whether it be: perception, cognition, emotion, personality, behavior and interpersonal relationships or unconscious mind.

I do not believe that we yet have the tools or equipment necessary to study several if not all sports and games and family dealings and inter-relashionship communications, etc..., to be able to analyse, compare and draw positive conclusions that isolate the gene or thinking process that is exclusive to playing chess.

The analysis does not have to be exhaustive to include every thing under the sun, does have to include chess, but the data base must be large enough to draw unequivoccal conclusions

If anyone has suggestions on the psychology aspect that applies exclusively to chess, it certainly would shed some light on my perception.


Go look up some information.  There are things.  I am asking about them.  Don't make it seem as if nothing has been done in this field already.  Plenty has been done, plenty makes sense, plenty has value for us; i just am looking for help researching these things.  Thank you.

19th June 2009, 06:32am
#13
by rich
United Kingdom
Member Since: Jul 2007
Member Points: 27854

Bobby Fischer says a expert chess player has to be a master in it.

19th June 2009, 06:51am
#14
by Garymossu
Brooklyn United States
Member Since: Jan 2009
Member Points: 274
rich wrote:

Bobby Fischer says a expert chess player has to be a master in it.


A master in what, psychology?  How was he a master in it, through trickery.  Manipulation of events?  What does that have to do with Chess - i think, nothing.

19th June 2009, 06:52am
#15
by WanderingWinder
United States
Member Since: Jul 2008
Member Points: 1109
Garymossu wrote:

"All of these tactics are psychological one having an effect on your opponent's concentration, whether it be simply annoying which in turn detracts focus and concentration.Why did Spassky say at the end of the championship that Fisher had won the championship even before the games started?

And was Fisher's actions not part of the outcome?

I do not know, but I do use psychology  when playing online against opponents and can tell you that words are a powerful deterrent to concentration."

 

This is ridiculous.  This is not Chess.  This is ridiculous.  Be it as it may, i am not interested in this type of thing.  This has nothing to do with Chess.  But trickery...scheming...etc.  So it seems.


What you call ridiculous (twice), many people call legitimate psychological measures. However, perhaps the kind of thing you are looking for is the selection of moves that make your opponent uncomfortable. There are many examples of this, especially out of the opening. Your opponent is trying to play a simple, safe game and you play perhaps a worse line which introduces many complications. Or they're trying to play tactically and you play positional moves, turning away tactical ones which may provide you clear inroads at advantage. Furthermore, you might play positional moves when your opponenet expects you to play tactical ones (or vice versa) to get in their head; they second-guess themselves and think that maybe they have missed something, that you know something they don't.

19th June 2009, 07:03am
#16
by TheGrobe
Calgary Canada
Member Since: Nov 2007
Member Points: 14433

The Fischer example is not a very good one because it's cheap tactics that have little to do with the game itself and everything to do with disrupting your opponent's pattern outside of the game.  Why stop there -- how about some itching powder in your opponent's underwear?  Maybe some lifesavers in the shower head?  None of this is psychology as it pertains to chess.

Psychology in the game itself would, to me at least, be a situation where you choose one move or strategy over another because of the psychological impact it has on a player.  Choosing a slow agonizing grind over a potentially faster tactical approach in part of a game that could call for either would be an example with the former likely taking more of a psychological toll on your opponent that could carry over to subsequent games.  If you can gainand keep the initiative this can also have an affect over and above the actual advantage it gives you on the board -- keeping your opponent on the defensive for a long period can change their mindset and how they approach the game and make them hesitant to attack.

I think examples such as these are what GaryMossu is looking for.

19th June 2009, 07:09am
#17
by Garymossu
Brooklyn United States
Member Since: Jan 2009
Member Points: 274
TheGrobe wrote:

The Fischer example is not a very good one because it's cheap tactics that have little to do with the game itself and everything to do with disrupting your opponent's pattern outside of the game.  Why stop there -- how about some itching powder in your opponent's underwear?  Maybe some lifesavers in the shower head?  None of this is psychology as it pertains to chess.

Psychology in the game itself would, to me at least, be a situation where you choose one move or strategy over another because of the psychological impact it has on a player.  Choosing a slow agonizing grind over a potentially faster tactical approach in part of a game that could call for either would be an example with the former likely taking more of a psychological toll on your opponent that could carry over to subsequent games.  If you can gainand keep the initiative this can also have an affect over and above the actual advantage it gives you on the board -- keeping your opponent on the defensive for a long period can change their mindset and how they approach the game and make them hesitant to attack.

I think examples such as these are what GaryMossu is looking for.


Yes, excellent example, and witty, entertaining, to-the-point intro. 

Any other examples?  On the web i found some studies...will post perhaps later.

I am looking now for original ideas from simply chess players as opposed to pyschologists.  How about how certain tacts or strategies in themselves are connected with certain particular think processes?  We need some understanding of pyschology and phrenology (perhaps) for this.

19th June 2009, 07:32am
#18
by NM Zug
Florida United States
Member Since: Feb 2008
Member Points: 881

"Psychology of Chess" by Nikolai Krogius

"Think Like a Grandmaster" by Alexander Kotov

"Catalog of Chess Mistakes" by Andrew Soltis

Read these before leaping into the fray of chess and psychology.  At least then you will be forearmed.

- Zug

19th June 2009, 07:47am
#19
by Garymossu
Brooklyn United States
Member Since: Jan 2009
Member Points: 274
Zug wrote:

"Psychology of Chess" by Nikolai Krogius

"Think Like a Grandmaster" by Alexander Kotov

"Catalog of Chess Mistakes" by Andrew Soltis

Read these before leaping into the fray of chess and psychology.  At least then you will be forearmed.

- Zug


Could you quote any short (or long) passages from these books?  It is legal (i believe) as it falls under the category of being small parts for review purposes, before we go leaping into buying them.

19th June 2009, 07:57am
#20
by Garymossu
Brooklyn United States
Member Since: Jan 2009
Member Points: 274
Amnesiac wrote:

So are we talking here about the way people play quickly when their opponent is in time trouble (which isn't the best way of playing as going for one or two move traps are easy to stop in time trouble when your opponent is just playing forcing moves) Or how about exchanging off pieces like the queens when you are lost, I have played lower rated players who are down material and exchange queens not realizing their only hope is too keep them on and the game complicated.

There was the game Karpov vs Miles where Miles opened with 1...a6, which had a visible effect on Karpov, the opening didn't win Miles the game from the merits of the move (Karpov got a good position) but it had an effect on Karpov where he really wanted to punish his opponent for playing such a move against a great like him.

In this sort of respect I would mention the DVD Chess for scoundrels where Davies talks about Pavlovian responses, giving your opponents rope, lots about draw offers- when to offer them, how they give information to you opponent- they can reaffirm what they are thinking or confuse them and the way they evaluate the position, for example you may think you are losing but get a draw offer which makes you reevaluate the position.

From personal experience I have played the opening e4 d5 e5 for white, objectively not great, it leads to a very good version of the French for black, but I prepared it specifically for my opponent (an OTB game) because I knew he was unfamiliar with French type positions.

Also with players that I know, there are some where I will keep pushing the position, others where I will sit back knowing my opponent will lash out eventually as they don't like quiet positions.

Also in certain positions, say I am lost, rather than keep the position simple where he will simply win easily I will try to head for positions that are complicated.

Anyway, not sure if this is the sort of thing meant.


This is one type of pyschology in Chess i find interesting.  Another examples i could think of is when Anand played the Scandanavian against Karpov.  Surprising him with that untraditional approach - rarely seen at master level.

The other type i previously mentioned though, i found even more intriguing (and maybe since it seems to me now, to be esoteric.)

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