Hmm, I would agree with you Ray if it were'nt really confusing on livechess, knowing the rules of chess is NOT the same as knowing how the site works.

Majere: I have resigned before because I felt it was cheap bullshit.  But I guess since listening to all of you, I don't know, maybe I'll re-think it.

I hope you will rethink it... there is nothing cheap about finding a way to draw an otherwise lost game -- be it with repetition, or a stalemate trap, or making your opponent prove he has the technique to finish off a theoretical win.  The 50 move rule gets applied happens at the very highest levels of chess.  There are endings like Queen vs Rook (no pawns) that are theoretical wins for white, but are _extremely_ difficult to figure out over the board.  It's not so easy to figure out how to mate with N and B vs K, either... most Masters will make the opponent play out these endings until they are satisfied the opponent knows the technique... and every now and then, they don't!  No one says the guy who insisted on playing out the "lost" game got a cheap-draw, on the contrary, everyone laughs at the embarassed Master who just had a big gaping hole in his knowledge exposed.

I definitely see where you are coming from, but I wondered if it was even proper for me (as the leader of my forces) to conceed anything to my opponent. Also, he didn't say hello when we started (I always take that into account).

p.s. I don't think he knew the rules anyway, not a word was uttered in question. Play continued as normal through the whole affair.

A haven't looked at the game but don't think that the specifics apply to the general question.  Gaining a potent advantage against a significantly better player can be a dangerous thing.  The potential, the ancticipation, the adrenalin.  If you blew a win, it could be as simple as briefly losing your concentration and/or choking.

I play to win, but a draw is whole lot better than a loss. I don't quit unless truly beaten down.  If you are winning, then I will be digging in, and doing everything that I can to find a draw and take that win away from you.

I've gotten many 50 move draws from players better than I am that do not have the endgame technique to earn the win.   K vs K+B+N and K vs K+B+B require precise play.  If a player cannot close the deal, they deserve not to win.

In this case, it sounds like you just gave it away.  Frustrating, but hopefully a lesson learned.  If not, you will suffer it again.

"Frustrating, but hopefully a lesson learned.  If not, you will suffer it again."

Never a truer word spoken.

Yep, it's not their poor sportsmanship for finding a saving resource, it's your poor play for allowing that draw in the first place.  And it is your poor sportsmanship if you refuse to acknowledge the perpetual check and continue to play on (especially when it's a tournament and you thereby may be holding up others from the next round).

Are you saying that your opponent should Give you a Win ... because you don't want to have to Win IT ... or perhaps do not feel you Can Win It?  You said you would resign a hard fought game rather than see it come to a Draw. ... Well, WHY HAVEN"T YOU THEN ?!  

Please don't take these remarks as being personal.  My intent is not that at all.  I just want to be Sure you heard what you Said~!  Because it is sounding like a bit of a double-standard being employed. Perhaps the opponent might feel a game where one is "winning" , but does Not Win, should be Resigned by the one who had the chance, but Failed to capitalize ...suppose? Why should he feel he should "Play for a Win" in a game where your play was so good he never had a Chance at actually Winning it, if that is the case? It seems you have something of a moral victory already if an opponent admits the need to play for a draw. Now the challenge lies before you of converting that to a Point. Something even Grandmasters are asked to do.

Realize I have not seen your game, or would not comment at all. So if on the otherhand you are saying someone is dragging out a hopelessly LOST game that you and he both knew he was definately going to LOSE, since you would both know how to win it easily ... well then I don't favor doing that from the weaker side of things, myself. But still everyone does have to right to play on to a Mate or Draw. And in such a case, sometimes you may know how to win it easily enough but your opponent may actually be complimenting you by playing on,tho you don't know it, because it may be that he thinks you play well enough that seeing you Win it will show him the proper way for Him to win it if he ever has a similar position to yours, since He may not Know How yet.

Regards

But it's a thrill to draw a game you were certain that you would lose.

If you can't defend against perpetual check, then you don't have a won game.  Welcome to the game of chess.  Having an advantage and winning are two different things.  But, consider this:  You have learned something.  I doubt you will allow yourself to miss an opponent's perpetual check in the future!

Sorry, I don't agree with this at all. If he played well enough to find the perpetual check then he deserves a draw for it. If he slipped before it was 3 repetitions then fair enough, but if it was after then I feel it really is bad sportsmanship to take a point away from him not because he played worse than you but because he didn't understand the site. As I see it, bad sportsmanship is really just a way of describing you doing anything to distract, hinder, or cheat your opponent off the board. The above falls into that category for me.

shajke,

easy fellah! you're sort of missing the point, he didn't say a word.... what do you want me to do? volunteer half a point? I should cocoa! Had he said anything to me I would have given him an honest answer. He continued to play, and so did I. It's certainly not my place to claim draws for my opponent, where did you get that idea from? some sort of super nicey, nicey chess world that only exists in your own head? Welcome to planet Earth, mate.

"distract, hinder, or cheat your opponent off the board.".... is an over-reaction, I played entirely within the rules. For all I know he may been trying to win, maybe he thought I would slip or give up. Who knows?

It is my place, however, to play my position as best as I able, which I did.

p.s. I had a 5 min game on this site against a Master, that resulted in a blockaded ending with opposite coloured Bishops. I was a pawn down but the position was dead drawn. I offered the fellow a draw he declined, we played on, moving back and forth. He was down to the last 10 secs, I offered him a draw again, he declined and lost on time. Honestly, there's no accounting for some folk.

37. Q x B

or use the 37 you did and retreat the queen to safety after the knight check, putting her where the knight used to be.

Looking for perpetuals like that becomes a hobby... you end up making bets with yourself on whether you have enough things to hide behind, because if you do it can be harmless to allow a heavy piece inside your ranks, and the opponent usually enjoys wasting a few moves that way.  Of course, when you're wrong....

What really annoyed me one time is when a smart player started making a couple real "dumb" moves all of a sudden...... and then earned a draw by stalemate after a combo sacrifice.

Looks like move 38 was a blunder though.

It is chess, not checkers.  The ultimate goal is not to capture more material, it is, as you know, to deliver checkmate.  You have each found a strategy to keep the other from achieving the goal.  That is a draw.  I am sure you are frustrated, but chess is all about strategy, and if a strategy is legal and works it is not a cheap shot--just a good strategy.  Playing for stalemate or a draw in an unwinnable position is a time-honored part of the game and the rulemakers have intentionally allowed for it.

Never resign!  You can't win (or draw) if you resign.

i think this is the most controversial post i've ever been a part of, thank you majere! without you this wouldn't have been possible!

i'd like to thank my mom. and my goldfish, mrs paul.  And! i'd like to thank the academy, and kosher salt, and over the counter sleep aids, and all natural honey!

never in my life would i ever have thought simple venting over a loss could provoke such a foxhunt.  i have truly enjoyed every moment!  god blesses everyone!

This would truly be ridiculous if all he was doing was venting about a loss.

If I could, I would like to refer you to the second half of post #15.

This thread is funny.

In only ten posts, the OP was told he felt stupid and had no balls.  Which made me wonder, why would someone read his post and then jump to thinking about the state of the OPs testicles...  then there was the whole "you're a twat" fiasco on page 2.

I can't wait to see where this one's gone by tomorrow afternoon.

Anyway - the constructive posts about how you need to defend against perpetual check are correct.  And it sounds like you've already rethought your position on it so just try to ignore the unwashed, name-calling masses who see fit to attack your intelligence and masculinity because they disagree with you.  Those type generally worry about their own intelligence and masculinity far too much anyway.

Wow.  Ive never tried to end a topic and logged back on and seen 45 new comments.  Interesting.  I'll explain too all of you eagerly awaiting my response the same thing I explained to him just now.

I learned to play chess at a really early age, 6 years old I believe.  I played off and on from there.  I am 28 now and I have only been playing seriously for about 6 months.  

Anyway, when prepectual check was explained to me as a child the tone was such that it was just a disrespectful and sissy way out.  I have never used prepetual check and it has never come up in a game I have ever played until now so I always believed that that was the general idea regarding it.  I guess I was the last too know.  So I apologized to my opponent for making a hassle of it and offered a draw.

I agree:)  I have been laughing so hard for about 30 min here at work!  So thanks everyone for your intentional or unintentional humor.  I guess something really fun DID come form my draw after all:)  Funny funny stuff!