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Tough luck for Aronian 5.5 hour game!!!


  • 4 months ago · Quote · #81

    GnrfFrtzl

    pdela írta:
    Checkmate in 524 moves!

     
    This position is solved by endgame tablebases to be a white win in 524 moves (with black to play).

    This is not normally what you think of as checkmate in X, but it will in fact be checkmate in 524 moves with best play from both sides.

    But the real question is, can this position be achieved in the first place?

  • 4 months ago · Quote · #82

    waffllemaster

    owltuna wrote:

    Proabably why Aronian tried so hard to force a win in a position he most likely knew was drawn.

    Most players know B+R vs R is drawn... we're talking about Aronian who is #2 player in the world.  I'm sure this isn't even his first time having B+R vs R.

  • 4 months ago · Quote · #83

    GnrfFrtzl

    waffllemaster írta:
    GnrfFrtzl wrote:

    50 moves is ALWAYS enough to win in any position where it is possible to mate.

    That's not true.

    GnrfFrtzl wrote:

    This is why the rule even exists.

    That's not true.

    GnrfFrtzl wrote:

    It has been long proven.

    That's not true.

    I can not prove my right here, as I don't even remember where have I read that, but this was actually the commonly accepted theory until the late 1900's.
    Since then, tons of positions were found where one side mates in over 300 or even 500 moves, but two things are facts:
    1. These are coreographed positions
    2. These can only be achieved by making the perfect engine moves every single time

    Simply put, they never actually happen in real life.


    As the other guy said, this position was either drawn (by a rook move), or lost (by a king move) in 13 moves at most.

    I'm open to admit I was wrong, but I believe that the only case where checkmate takes longer than 50 move in any position is where two computers play each other with the perfect engine moves to prolong the game, keeping the drawn position.
    Eventually, it'll come down to a sequence of moves leading to checkmate that will always be fewer than 50 moves.

    That's my point, but as I said, I'm open to admit I was wrong.

  • 4 months ago · Quote · #84

    waffllemaster

    Yeah, I think that's why they went back to 50 move rule... because it's impractical for people to win those kinds of positions.

    Other than those crazy pawnless endgames with huge mate in __ numbers, I think there are some practical positions that take longer than 50 moves as well.  For example some queen and pawn endgames are winning... but only if you're a computer.

  • 4 months ago · Quote · #85

    rooperi

    Before engines, there were a few reasonable positions known that required more than 50 moves.

    My point is, without engine help (some/few?) humans are capable of finding the win.

    However, these positions are so rare, 50 moves is probably a good compromise. Like someone said, everybody knows the rules going in.

  • 4 months ago · Quote · #86

    pdela

    rooperi wrote:

    Before engines, there were a few reasonable positions known that required more than 50 moves.

    My point is, without engine help (some/few?) humans are capable of finding the win.

    However, these positions are so rare, 50 moves is probably a good compromise. Like someone said, everybody knows the rules going in.

    It's just a way to avoid games to get eternal. Once is within the rules, you know, it's just a rule. But, the white player having Rook + Bishop vs Rook could pursuit the win forever if there was no rule

  • 4 months ago · Quote · #87

    owltuna

    Precisely.


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