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Who is better in this position?


  • 17 months ago · Quote · #1

    Marcus-101

  • 17 months ago · Quote · #2

    waffllemaster

    Targets for white?  Files for the rooks?  So I suspect black is a bit better.  He can try to go to work on the queenside.

  • 17 months ago · Quote · #3

    Scottrf

    With white's safe king and lack of targets, you would think white is better in a two rooks vs queen imbalance.

    One problem is that black's light squared bishop is pointing at the king, and white's isn't really participating. So black has the better minor pieces, and white's rooks only have 1 open file, and a semi open file, and I would guess it's hard to penetrate the position against bishops.

  • 17 months ago · Quote · #4

    Suvel

    i think black is slightly better

  • 17 months ago · Quote · #5

    waffllemaster

    Actually my first thought was probably wrong... opening more files helps white.  So maybe just equal, but I'd be more comfortable as black.  Not sure how to organize myself as white.

  • 17 months ago · Quote · #6

    Scottrf

    waffllemaster wrote:

    Targets for white?  Files for the rooks?  So I suspect black is a bit better.  He can try to go to work on the queenside.

    Why the queenside? Opening lines there must help the rooks? (leading more to a position like http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1485779 gets to after about 26 moves) With the queen, surely you want to open the king. Try and force weakening moves, advance kingside pawns etc.

  • 17 months ago · Quote · #7

    waffllemaster

    Yeah, that's a more sensible plan.

  • 17 months ago · Quote · #8

    waffllemaster

    I wonder if the bishop pair is ever a liability when you need to generate play... it may sound funny, but after all they can never combine on a square.  Makes them feel a bit less powerful in a position like this somehow.  For example replace the f6 bishop with a knight.  Does that help black at all?

  • 17 months ago · Quote · #9

    Scottrf

    It's an interesting thought, the knight is more versatile as an attacker. With the only dark squared bishop shouldn't black be able to dominate there? Except there's nothing really to dominate, white doesn't have pawn weaknesses.

  • 17 months ago · Quote · #10

    DaBigOne

    The position is probably equal, but I'd imagine that if I played the position as White, I'd lose material to a fork of some sort.

  • 17 months ago · Quote · #11

    MelvinDoucet

    I think it's better to have two rooks vs the queen in the endgame because, as long as you're careful of forks, it's basically two pieces against one although the queen has more mobility. Here there are still a lot of pawns left and with the two bishops, the queen can constantly be creating mate threats. There's only one open file the rooks could use but with the bishop pair all the entry points are easily guarded.

  • 17 months ago · Quote · #12

    Scottrf

    MelvinDoucet wrote:

    I think it's better to have two rooks vs the queen in the endgame because, as long as you're careful of forks, it's basically two pieces against one although the queen has more mobility. Here there are still a lot of pawns left and with the two bishops, the queen can constantly be creating mate threats. There's only one open file the rooks could use but with the bishop pair all the entry points are easily guarded.

    You just copied my post Yell

  • 17 months ago · Quote · #13

    ViktorHNielsen

    Rfd1 with the idea of Nd4 followed by Bf3 seems to be an obvious plan.

    With the minor pieces, black has some chances for attacking (If we remove the minor pieces in the diagram, I think white somehow has a winning (or practically winning) position). So trading minor pieces seems to be the easiest way to play for a win.

    I can't find some good plans for black. Maybe h5-h4-h3?

  • 17 months ago · Quote · #14

    MelvinDoucet

    Scottrf wrote:
    MelvinDoucet wrote:

    I think it's better to have two rooks vs the queen in the endgame because, as long as you're careful of forks, it's basically two pieces against one although the queen has more mobility. Here there are still a lot of pawns left and with the two bishops, the queen can constantly be creating mate threats. There's only one open file the rooks could use but with the bishop pair all the entry points are easily guarded.

    You just copied my post 

    I did change some words, though Tongue Out

  • 17 months ago · Quote · #15

    Marcus-101

    So generally we think that Black is slightly better? I think I might try this line as Black, as white's moves are fairly obvious and it doesn't look like he's walking down a prepared line :)

  • 17 months ago · Quote · #16

    Scottrf

    Who is better is probably who changes the position to work for their pieces? If white can open another file for his rooks and get his minors to better squares (not so easy with threats on g2) he's probably better. If black can force kingside weaknesses he's probably better. Just a patzer's opinion.

  • 17 months ago · Quote · #17

    Marcus-101

    I think you are totally correct, but I think it then comes down to who can change the position to work for their pieces first, or to greater effect. So who do you think can do that?

  • 17 months ago · Quote · #18

    Scottrf

    No idea to be honest, I always have trouble finding non forcing moves for my opponent or 'quiet' best moves. I would probably like white, because I think there are more future positions that would favour him. But maybe there is something more concrete involving pushing the h pawn (maybe too crude).

    White does have the problem (if black can prevent c4) that black might be able to block the d file with a bishop.

    Interesting position anyway.

  • 17 months ago · Quote · #19

    NimzoRoy

    This position looks about = IMHO. Material is even (or about even, depending on if you value the queen at 9 or 10)  White has 2 theoretical advantages: 1 -two rooks for a queen and 2- Q-side pawn majority which is often a critical endgame factor Black has one important advantage: the bishop-pair. Black's K-side pawns are "shaky" (but hardly obvious targets in this position) whereas White's pawns on both wings are all at home except for the pawn on c3; so White is pretty secure on both wings. 

    Offhand I don't see how either White or Black can accomplish much, even after White activates his Rooks by placing them on one or both central files the Queen may keep them homebound defending pawns, unless White decides to try activating his Q-side pawn majority. 

  • 17 months ago · Quote · #20

    erikido23

    exchanging minors is a horrible idea for black imop.  They have the much better minor pieces.  The knight isn't active at all and if it moves the kingside can become weak.  The only progress I see is b5 or g5 for black...but if b5 first then nd4 and white is untangling.

     

    It is whites move but I don't see any way to get going.  a4 and a5 simply stops white has simply immobilized their majority.  So I think that is why they agreed to draw


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