Forums

Why is this game so male-dominated?

Sort:
astronomer999
astronomer999 wrote:
StrengthInPawns wrote:

I would demolish you, for instance. Your rating is higher than mine but I just began playing on this site and will probalby be rated in the 2200-2400 range when my rating stabilizes (post-provisional)

About 120 blitz games for about 2000 rating. Average opponent about 1600

About 40 standard games for about 1600 rating. Average opponent about 1400.

I'm inclined to bet against that proposition

I was looking at the second proposition. I don't know how you would go against any particular player

But I wouldn't back myself against you

trysts
StrengthInPawns wrote:
trysts wrote:
StrengthInPawns wrote:
 

Don't worry too much about my ego. It's right where it should be. (at the "accurate self assessment level")

Also, I wasn't born with a special capacity for chess. I was above average when I started, but I became strong via playing for about twenty years against a wide range of opponents and time controls.

To answer your final question.

Some males lose to you because you are stronger than them.

As I have said over and over again, some females are better than some males. This is a discussion about why men dominate in chess. Not whether all men are better than all women which is absurd. There are plenty of strong female players who would crush most serious male players.

If this is a discussion about why men dominate chess, then it could have easily been eradicated by saying that more men are interested in chess than women. I have no idea why you would not say this to begin with instead of saying that "men are mentally better" at chess? They are not "mentally better" at chess. Each 'individual' claims his or hers spot in the ratings by effort, not by biology, neurology, nor anatomy.

I appreciate you trying to at least formulate a sane response. But you're continuing to miss the point.

An individual can be good or bad at chess. But their genetic predisposition towards different activities can influence how far they go. Or at least how easy it is for them to go as far as they could. Or at least what they're interested in pursuing.

And we're not talking about individuals, we're talking about the genders as a whole.

So your mistakes are two fold:

1: repeatedly interpreting my gender-wide statements as pertaining to every individual (this is a fallacy)

2: assuming there is no genetic component to skill or aptitude or general interest

But again, I appreciate that you're trying.

I appreciate that you spend time out of the hospital to address me:) Your understanding is cute. You know, like penguins. Bringing up genetics of course refers to individuality, since we are all genetically unique(save for twins). If you have a twin, then I assume I will have to address two errors in thought. But let's just make it simple for you. If I win a man at chess, in fact if any woman wins a man at chess, then the game of chess is open to both sexes. There is no natural aptitude pertaining to chess. It's a difficult game requiring effort where no woman nor man can rely upon genetic misunderstandings which you so readily embrace.

trysts

Once Mr. Polgar showed that three girls could compete at the very highest levels of chess, then the argument of male superiority vanished. You, StrengthInPawn, are a dinosaur. Your thinking has died out.

SPARTANEMESIS
StrengthInPawns wrote:
9thEagle wrote:

Someone once put it like this, which I think is a concise explanation:

Boys like to play against their friends.

Girls like to play with thier friends.

I think the trend continues past adolescence, although most really good chess players started as children anyway.

I wouldn't even say that is true since women always seem to be at odds with each other. Have you seen the general vehemence they display towards each other?

Whereas men seem to establish lifelong friendships fairly commonly.

I'm going to stick with the intelligence explanation since it is rooted in solid science and thus far has been refuted by nothing but jokes, sarcasm, and denial :)

I know several women who are often quick to become friends with other women; interestingly the minority of these ladies are from the U.S.  One whom I'm close with told me she was out on a girl's night recently and all the girls were talking about how terrible men are.  It just occurred to me maybe women have avoided the game for centuries because it has often been considered a man's game and men can act really stupid around women when they put their minds to it.  Well Aristotle did say: "Men are good in one way, but bad in many," so we're lucky we have women who are good in so many more ways.  

madhacker
trysts wrote:

Once Mr. Polgar showed that three girls could compete at the very highest levels of chess, then the argument of male superiority vanished. You, StrengthInPawn, are a dinosaur. Your thinking has died out.

Polgar also demonstrated that genius can be made, rather than just born - maybe not Carlsen-level genius, but certainly sub-Carlsen-level genius.

IMHO the main factor was that the Polgar girls grew up in an environment where their father was telling them that they can be good at chess and should strive for that, and that was their main influence. I know a lot of people question the morality of how Mr. Polgar raised his daughters, but at least he taught them to value themselves. Too many young girls grow up in an environment full of implicit messages in the media and in the resultant "culture" (or lack of culture) surrounding them, that they are to be valued mainly for their bodies and should put up with being treated like sh*t. The same culture implicitly teaches young boys that they are not "proper men" unless they treat women like sh*t. As far as I can tell, the main purpose of this is to create a totally artificial but highly lucrative market for things such as cosmetic surgery, lads' mags, and the like.

Anyway, I guess where I'm going with this is, is related to my own experiences of teaching chess to youngsters. With the boys, the main obstactle you've usually got to overcome is getting them to sit down and concentrate, not mess about etc. Once you get over this hump, they've got a chance to develop as chess players. With the girls, more often than not it's a confidence issue, and I've outlined above my theories as to what causes this. Once you can get them to really believe that there's no reason they can't compete with the boys, you're over the hump and they've got a chance.

Just my two cents.

x-5058622868
StrengthInPawns wrote:
9thEagle wrote:

Someone once put it like this, which I think is a concise explanation:

Boys like to play against their friends.

Girls like to play with thier friends.

I think the trend continues past adolescence, although most really good chess players started as children anyway.

I wouldn't even say that is true since women always seem to be at odds with each other. Have you seen the general vehemence they display towards each other?

Whereas men seem to establish lifelong friendships fairly commonly.

I'm going to stick with the intelligence explanation since it is rooted in solid science and thus far has been refuted by nothing but jokes, sarcasm, and denial :)

Batgirl's explanation is neither a joke, sarcasm, nor denial.

I'd like a cite for those blanket statements.

Conflagration_Planet
StrengthInPawns wrote:
9thEagle wrote:

Someone once put it like this, which I think is a concise explanation:

Boys like to play against their friends.

Girls like to play with thier friends.

I think the trend continues past adolescence, although most really good chess players started as children anyway.

I wouldn't even say that is true since women always seem to be at odds with each other. Have you seen the general vehemence they display towards each other?

Whereas men seem to establish lifelong friendships fairly commonly.

I'm going to stick with the intelligence explanation since it is rooted in solid science and thus far has been refuted by nothing but jokes, sarcasm, and denial :)

I think it's just amazing how men never fight among themselves, or go to war.

madhacker
FelixPlatypus wrote:

strengthinPawns will not understand, CP. it's like ciljettu risen from the dead.

Laughing To be fair, the forums wouldn't be as fun without at least one of these around at any given time.

Here's a thought - why are people so keen to differentiate between "innate" characteristics and "acquired" ones? I don't see such a clear dividing line. What is nature if not nurture inherited from the development of previous generations of the organism? "Innate" properties do not simply drop from the sky, they are developed as part of the evolutionary process.

x-5058622868
StrengthInPawns wrote:
9thEagle wrote:

Someone once put it like this, which I think is a concise explanation:

Boys like to play against their friends.

Girls like to play with thier friends.

I think the trend continues past adolescence, although most really good chess players started as children anyway.

I wouldn't even say that is true since women always seem to be at odds with each other. Have you seen the general vehemence they display towards each other?

Whereas men seem to establish lifelong friendships fairly commonly.

I'm going to stick with the intelligence explanation since it is rooted in solid science and thus far has been refuted by nothing but jokes, sarcasm, and denial :)

Are you aware that these blanket statements are likely "things you want to hear" instead of the truth?

zborg

Since I lack (lifelong) male friends, I might be a woman at heart?

Gosh, what a relief, I was worried about being too androgynous.

Thanks for the incisive clarification, @StrengthINPawns.  Burp.  Laughing

Has @Ciljettu really returned?

pdela
trysts wrote:
StrengthInPawns wrote:
 

Don't worry too much about my ego. It's right where it should be. (at the "accurate self assessment level")

Also, I wasn't born with a special capacity for chess. I was above average when I started, but I became strong via playing for about twenty years against a wide range of opponents and time controls.

To answer your final question.

Some males lose to you because you are stronger than them.

As I have said over and over again, some females are better than some males. This is a discussion about why men dominate in chess. Not whether all men are better than all women which is absurd. There are plenty of strong female players who would crush most serious male players.

If this is a discussion about why men dominate chess, then it could have easily been eradicated by saying that more men are interested in chess than women. I have no idea why you would not say this to begin with instead of saying that "men are mentally better" at chess? They are not "mentally better" at chess. Each 'individual' claims his or hers spot in the ratings by effort, not by biology, neurology, nor anatomy.

Each 'individual' claims his or hers spot in the ratings by effort, and according to his/hers biological and neurological possibilities


corrected

Conflagration_Planet
StrengthInPawns wrote:

pdela gets it.

You're most definitely hung up on yourself. Narcissistic as hell. Everybody I've ever met in person with those traits are self centered d--k heads with a Nazi like superiority complex. Everybody else is beneath you, and not worth your consideration.

x-5058622868
StrengthInPawns wrote:

pdela gets it.

Yes, he does, but you don't.

You're still hearing what you want to hear.

zborg

Why are prisons so male-dominated?  Inquiring Minds Want to Know.

Such an absurd web we weave.  Smile

x-5058622868

You could also ask why prisons are predominantly more of one racial background than another.

netzach

Why are dominoes so male-dominated?

That is another important question would like answered.

pdela
StrengthInPawns wrote:

pdela gets it.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to have got.

1) As a colective I do think women strength in chess is as good as males strength in chess the same way that women and men IQ's averge are comparable. I think in the last survey on this women average IQ surpassed men for the first time.

2)When you seek for the cases of extremely high chess ability, you find the proportion of men is bigger, cause "superbraniacs" are in bigger proportion men ||just a "frequentist" interpretation||. There is not a reason which prevents a woman from being a "superbraniac" but if you have to guess the genre of a Nobel Laureated you have better chances to succeed if you say it's a man. Men tend to the extremes...while the spectrum of IQ of women is more peaked around the average

TitanCG

Can we take a break from pseudo-science and look at the obvious social issues involved?

Every GM, whether male or female, has spent the majority of their life playing chess. Thing is though that at a certain age chess is social suicide. That is somewhere in the teens - the exact point in which coaches note the uneven ratio of male to female players. HOW ABOUT THAT? 

"You mean it's social suicide for a girl to play chess? Why golly gee this was not covered in number theory! You mean they're worried about looking like nerds?" Yes friends, I have blown your mind. 

"Wait, there can't be stigmas about intelligent woman out there? Surely the chess playing girls are at least accepted in the chess circle? Oh wait - maybe that's why every discussion about women in chess turns into some debate with crack-pot theories about IQ. Maybe that's why men go into super-mega posturing mode whenever a smart woman is even mentioned." 

And what's the easiest way to avoid all this crap? I'm sure you can put two and two together...

bigpoison

Hmmm?  Do I agree with the CG guy or the pawns guy?  Tough decision.  On the one hand, I'm pretty sure the CG guy has been outside.  On the other hand, I'm pretty sure that the pawns guy has been abducted by aliens.

Too close to call.

TitanCG
[COMMENT DELETED]