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  • 15 months ago · Quote · #1

    yeres30

    From an IM vs GM game in the 1973 Leningrad Interzonal is the position below after 27.Qxh6 Qc7-d6. 28.Rc5

    What is White threatenng with his last move (28.Rc5)?

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #2

    darkener

    Well, this position seems pretty equal to me..

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #3

    nebunulpecal

    I think it's 1.Nxe5 Nxe5 2.Rxd5 followed by 3.Rdxe5 because 2...Qxd5 3.Bxd5 exd5 doesn't work due to 3...Qd6+ and 4...Qxe5.

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #4

    dzikus

    white tries to exploit the undefended Qd6 in a nasty way:

    29.Nxe5 Nxe5 30.Rxd5 - e5 is attacked twice and ed5 is not possible for Qxd6 - thus white is going to take the piece back and have 2 pawns up(e5 and d5 were just destroyed)

    Black cannot save the piece up by playing 30...Ng4 as white simply answers 31.Rxd6 Bxh6 Rxd7 with a winning position.

    So the position by no means looks equal: white bishop is much stronger than his opponent, g3 is a passer and white is overall much more active

    Edit: I can see others think of similar threats but I was typing more slowly Wink

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #5

    FirebrandX

    The idea is Nh4 and then Rxd5 if black doesn't leave f8 open for the queen to help counter-stike f2 with the rook whilst also threatening Qxh6. Black of course cannot play exd5 since the queen on h6 covers d6. So with that being said, black can play Rf7 or something like b6 to punt the rook.

    Edit: By the way, the Nxe5 idea fails after 29...Nxe5 30.Rxd5 Qb6! which threatens f2 again, and the rook is now en prise on d5.

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #6

    dzikus

    29.Nxe5 Nxe5 30.Rxd5 Qb6 31.d4 might not be so simple as white covers g1-a7 diagonal and maintains the pin on 6th rank which protects the rook

    But Nh4 might be better indeed

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #7

    FirebrandX

    dzikus wrote:

    29.Nxe5 Nxe5 30.Rxd5 Qb6 31.d4 might not be so simple as white covers g1-a7 diagonal and maintains the pin on 6th rank which protects the rook

    But Nh4 might be better indeed

    The queen gets chased if you play 31.d4 as in 31.d4 Rh8 32.Qf6 Rcf8 and white is completely screwed. So the only choice is 31.Rc5, but then simply Nxd3 and black is winning anyway.

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #8

    dzikus

    Wait a moment, 31.d4 Rh8 32.Qf6 Rcf8 33.Qxe5+ - there is a check!

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #9

    FirebrandX

    dzikus wrote:

    Wait a moment, 31.d4 Rh8 32.Qf6 Rcf8 33.Qxe5+ - there is a check!

    You're assuming black's king is still on b8. Remeber it's black's move, so I played something neutral to test the tactics with 28...Ka8

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #10

    nebunulpecal

    dzikus wrote:

    Wait a moment, 31.d4 Rh8 32.Qf6 Rcf8 33.Qxe5+ - there is a check!

    31.d4 Ng4 -/+

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #11

    FirebrandX

    nebunulpecal wrote:
    dzikus wrote:

    Wait a moment, 31.d4 Rh8 32.Qf6 Rcf8 33.Qxe5+ - there is a check!

    31.d4 Ng4 -/+

    Correct, if assuming white got two turns in a row with 28 and 29.

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #12

    dzikus

    Yeah, I am assuming that and analysing in a way computer engines programmers call "null move" - assume black made a null move which did not change anything and looking for white's threats

    Seeing this check after Qxe5+ could help black choose an answer like Ka8, provided there were no other threats which could exploit the 6th rank pin

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #13

    FirebrandX

    dzikus wrote:

     

    Seeing this check after Qxe5+ could help black choose an answer like Ka8, provided there were no other threats which could exploit the 6th rank pin

    Except I played Ka8 without seeing anything coming. It was an accident that it affected your analysis the way it did.

    Nevertheless, doing a null move still gives black the winning game with the Nxe5 idea using Qb6 as the counter.

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #14

    nebunulpecal

    FirebrandX wrote:
    nebunulpecal wrote:
    dzikus wrote:

    Wait a moment, 31.d4 Rh8 32.Qf6 Rcf8 33.Qxe5+ - there is a check!

    31.d4 Ng4 -/+

    Correct, if assuming white got two turns in a row with 28 and 29.

    What two turns in a row?! The question was, what's White's THREAT, so in this case you take the given position "as-is" and give White the turn to move.

    It's not to find White's move in that position (because it's Black's turn); it's to find White's move assuming Black played a null move.

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #15

    dzikus

    FirebrandX napisał:
    dzikus wrote:

     

    Seeing this check after Qxe5+ could help black choose an answer like Ka8, provided there were no other threats which could exploit the 6th rank pin

    Except I played Ka8 without seeing anything coming. It was an accident that it affected your analysis the way it did.

    Nevertheless, doing a null move still gives black the winning game with the Nxe5 idea using Qb6 as the counter.

    You are right, 31.d4 Ng4 shows that Qb6 is the right defence against Nxe5 thus Nxe5 is not a threat in the given position

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #16

    FirebrandX

    nebunulpecal wrote:
    FirebrandX wrote:
    nebunulpecal wrote:
    dzikus wrote:

    Wait a moment, 31.d4 Rh8 32.Qf6 Rcf8 33.Qxe5+ - there is a check!

    31.d4 Ng4 -/+

    Correct, if assuming white got two turns in a row with 28 and 29.

    What two turns in a row?! The question was, what's White's THREAT, so in this case you take the given position "as-is" and give White the turn to move.

    It's not to find White's move in that position (because it's Black's turn); it's to find White's move assuming Black played a null move.

    He also listed the moves as in 28.Rc5. I assume NORMAL chess means you have to give a move for black since IT IS black's turn. (are you liking caps getting thrown back at you?) He never specifically stated anything about a "null move". Furthermore, Nh4 doesn't do anything after a null move, yet I know for a fact that is the correct strategy based on the actual game in question. So back off with your attack. Nxe5 loses in a null-move scenario anyway, so obviously that was not his intent. In fact, the best move in a null-move scenario is Qe3, which has nothing to do with the tactics that were involved in the game.

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #17

    nebunulpecal

    FirebrandX wrote:
    nebunulpecal wrote:
    FirebrandX wrote:
    nebunulpecal wrote:
    dzikus wrote:

    Wait a moment, 31.d4 Rh8 32.Qf6 Rcf8 33.Qxe5+ - there is a check!

    31.d4 Ng4 -/+

    Correct, if assuming white got two turns in a row with 28 and 29.

    What two turns in a row?! The question was, what's White's THREAT, so in this case you take the given position "as-is" and give White the turn to move.

    It's not to find White's move in that position (because it's Black's turn); it's to find White's move assuming Black played a null move.

    He also listed the moves as in 28.Rc5. I assume NORMAL chess means you have to give a move for black since IT IS black's turn. (are you liking caps getting thrown back at you?) He never specifically stated anything about a "null move". Furthermore, Nh4 doesn't do anything after a null move, yet I know for a fact that is the correct strategy based on the actual game in question. So back off with your attack.

    I didn't start any attack. I wanted to tell dzikus not to bother analyzing the 31.d4 Rh8 variation because 31...Ng4 is enough of a refutation. You interfered in that discussion and proved that you don't understand what the original question was about.

    About CAPS, as far as I'm concerned, go ahead and throw them at will, they don't hurt anyone except those with inflated ego... 

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #18

    FirebrandX

    nebunulpecal wrote: You interfered in that discussion and proved that you don't understand what the original question was about.

    It actually proves YOU don't understand the original question. Let me repeat again and maybe you'll figure it out:

    The correct "threat" does NOT work in a null-move scenario, and neither does the incorrect threat of Nxe5.


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