chess tactics, thinking 5 moves ahead

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10th October 2009, 03:44pm
#1
by demetrios18
new york United States
Member Since: Nov 2008
Member Points: 501

 think 5 moves ahead to solve this puzzle, many sacrifice and sneaky play is needed : )

10th October 2009, 04:20pm
#2
by SerbianChessStar
Belgrade Serbia
Member Since: May 2009
Member Points: 2592

Very nice game,

the first move was the hardest to get for me,

but then the rest was easier then the first one :P

10th October 2009, 04:30pm
#3
by bondiggity
United States
Member Since: Jun 2008
Member Points: 1552

What do you recommend if black plays 2...Na5 or 2...d3? 

10th October 2009, 05:09pm
#4
by Skeptikill
Ireland Ireland
Member Since: Feb 2008
Member Points: 979

ye i was thinking the same, im pretty sure black did not play accurately, and therefore it is a flwaed puzzle if the moves arent forced...

10th October 2009, 05:12pm
#5
by SerbianChessStar
Belgrade Serbia
Member Since: May 2009
Member Points: 2592

Na5 b4

d3 Bb3

10th October 2009, 05:36pm
#6
by bondiggity
United States
Member Since: Jun 2008
Member Points: 1552
SerbianChessStar wrote:

Na5 b4

d3 Bb3


2...Na5 3. b4 Nc4; if 4. Bb3 b5 with d3 coming

2...d3 3. Bb3 Qxb2 4. Bxf7+ Kxf7 5. Qd2 Qxd2

10th October 2009, 05:59pm
#7
by demetrios18
new york United States
Member Since: Nov 2008
Member Points: 501
Skeptikill wrote:

ye i was thinking the same, im pretty sure black did not play accurately, and therefore it is a flwaed puzzle if the moves arent forced...


 The bishop move for black is slightly forced, because bishop for rook is a no brainer. But this lets white get a far more dominant bishop to pin blacks rook and gain more material and stronger square for queen. Black probably play some inacuracies with last pawn move but other than that black could of  not done  much better after the bishop pin which i thought won me the game.

12th October 2009, 09:24am
#8
by zoltarsniper
Saint Louis United States
Member Since: Oct 2009
Member Points: 3

Why does black not move 4...ORe8?  Or simply not move the rook in the first place?

12th October 2009, 10:18am
#9
by demetrios18
new york United States
Member Since: Nov 2008
Member Points: 501
zoltarsniper wrote:

Why does black not move 4...ORe8?  Or simply not move the rook in the first place?


 Earlier in the game my rook queen and bishop had early king side pressure so his queen on H8 had to prevent mate.  Once your opponent is cramped he cannot do nothing.  This was also not one of thed toughest opponents I played so I was expected to win this 1600's rated player. 

But its good to analyize cramped positions and see how you can evaluate it for both sides as well as what pieces to give up and whats the strategy and goal behind it.  Perhaps I will create a closed position chess club and post some of my games and philosophy on how to create closed positions that win.

Right now I am capable to do it with white, but black its much more difficult because i only do sicilian, benion, or queens gambit declined opens and I just need more expierence.

I would rather lose a great game than win an easy win.  I also lose games on chess.com on purpose with rook, bishop, and knight gambits sacrifice in hopes of winning but so far im 3-7 doing that and lost more than won but I gained expierence doing it. 

I want to create a chess club on chess.com so that we can learn from each other exchaning  knowledge , expierence, chess programs, ideas, and hopefully we can all be great friends.  Right now Im trying to get games on playchess.com with grand master Kasparov but looks like Magnus Carlsen is playing there much more and I have a waiting list to play him.  Also Kasparov and Carlsen are scheduling an online match against each other live on playchess.com but dont know where and you have to be a premium member to view it.

ALso I ordered Fritz 12 which gives me a free premium membership bonus to playchess.com which is similar to chess.com but GM's challenge premium members and you get live training. But i feel Chessmentor on chess.com is more helpful because its hands on and you have to think and actually move the pieces yourself and you get alot more lessons.

12th October 2009, 10:49am
#10
by kunduk
kolkata India
Member Since: Feb 2009
Member Points: 871

good enough..

12th October 2009, 11:38am
#11
by JG27Pyth
NYC United States
Member Since: Mar 2008
Member Points: 1470
demetrios18 wrote:
Skeptikill wrote:

ye i was thinking the same, im pretty sure black did not play accurately, and therefore it is a flwaed puzzle if the moves arent forced...


 The bishop move for black is slightly forced, because bishop for rook is a no brainer. But this lets white get a far more dominant bishop to pin blacks rook and gain more material and stronger square for queen. Black probably play some inacuracies with last pawn move but other than that black could of  not done  much better after the bishop pin which i thought won me the game.


Not taking the rook is a no-brainer. The black king is obviously under attack, the Bishop on c4 holds a crucial diagonal... meanwhile that white rook has no part in the attack. It is a flat out blunder to waste a tempo exchanging a crucial defender for a bystander. You can retitle the puzzle "punishing greed" and then it's fair... but a solid player (no title required) doesn't take that rook -- and you should reconsider your definition of "forced" -- calling something slightly forced makes no sense.

*LOL* Ok, all of that was predicated on a not very deep look at the position in which I gave demetrios the benefit of the doubt for actually having some sort of attack for white... but I just checked this with some software and (*deep sigh*) although it isn't the best move Black can get away with taking that rook. (In fact it's one of several winning moves Black has)... White is lost here -- just lost. Go ahead take the rook.

12th October 2009, 11:53am
#12
by bondiggity
United States
Member Since: Jun 2008
Member Points: 1552

Yeah, but you are right to say that Bxf1 isn't forced, I mean it really doesn't win the exchange as white can win it back. 

 

Edit: oops, accidentally deleted over my older post. Didn't realize I was in edit mode. D'oh. 

12th October 2009, 12:00pm
#13
by JG27Pyth
NYC United States
Member Since: Mar 2008
Member Points: 1470

Bondiggity: Not really, Bxf1 is completely sound.

Yeah, it's in my edit -- the puzzle is what is completely unsound! Bxf1 is perfectly playable. Black has plenty of resources against Bb3... Qe5 is the crucial one which I didn't spot on my first look. Software pointed it out to me at which juncture I realized: doh! This isn't White's position to win at all.

However, I can assure you... IF white had an attack, Bxf1 would be a terrible move WinkInnocent

12th October 2009, 12:19pm
#14
by JG27Pyth
NYC United States
Member Since: Mar 2008
Member Points: 1470
bondiggity wrote:

Yeah, but you are right to say that Bxf1 isn't forced, I mean it really doesn't win the exchange as white can win it back. 

 

Edit: oops, accidentally deleted over my older post. Didn't realize I was in edit mode. D'oh. 


Right. What's winning for Black are those extra connected passed pawns up in White's face... the question with the Bishop is... Does Bxf1 help us simplify into Black's won ending -- ultimately taking two bishops and two rooks off the board -- or is the Bishop worth more on it's active post supporting those pawns? (The answer is: it's all good.)

This requires seeing that Qe5 defangs White's menacing looking position after Bb3... failing that you simply don' t even consider Bxf1 (and you're winning) -- which is where I'd have been, OTB as Black.

12th October 2009, 04:26pm
#15
by daxelson
United States
Member Since: Jul 2008
Member Points: 182

What happens if black plays as follows? I haven't looked at all the possibilities, but this looks like a black win to me . . .

12th October 2009, 08:01pm
#16
by demetrios18
new york United States
Member Since: Nov 2008
Member Points: 501

are you guys calling me a weak player who posts wrong puzzles?? Those were the actual moves played in a game. Secondly you guys posts puzzles in which you play out moves but who is moving for other side? You cant post a puzzle in which you move for both sides, obviously you will post wrong moves for side you want to lose.

dont hate my puzzles, just appreciate chess

12th October 2009, 08:40pm
#17
by BorgQueen
Adelaide Australia
Member Since: Aug 2008
Member Points: 5056

Sorry, but the puzzle is just wrong.

Because it was played in the game means nothing.  Black screwed up and is actually winning quite convincingly until Ree7Qf6 instead of Ree7 and white has nothing.

Sorry.

12th October 2009, 09:26pm
#18
by JG27Pyth
NYC United States
Member Since: Mar 2008
Member Points: 1470
demetrios18 wrote:

are you guys calling me a weak player who posts wrong puzzles?? Those were the actual moves played in a game. Secondly you guys posts puzzles in which you play out moves but who is moving for other side? You cant post a puzzle in which you move for both sides, obviously you will post wrong moves for side you want to lose.

dont hate my puzzles, just appreciate chess


are you guys calling me a weak player who posts wrong puzzles?? No one called you any names but yes your puzzle is being criticized.

If you post puzzles that have no correct solution folks are going to bring it up. 

You cant post a puzzle in which you move for both sides, obviously you will post wrong moves for side you want to lose. In the best puzzles the losing side plays  best defense but still fails... but the puzzle doesn't have to proceed along those lines. The rule (IMO) is, the defending side doesn't have to make perfect moves -- but the solver's moves must always be valid tested against best defense were it played from that point forward.  That's not really the problem here.

The problem is you've posted a puzzle in a "white to move and win" format -- when there is no such move.

The stronger a player is the better he is able to see there is no winning move for White. Garry Kasparov would stare at your puzzle (briefly) and say -- I can't solve this! There is no solution: White has no winning moves here, I'm certain of it. 

This seems like something you should try to understand before posting more puzzles, or you'll run into similar complaints in future puzzles.

 Also...ugh, some of my analysis in this thread has been really sloppy.Embarassed

13th October 2009, 02:43pm
#19
by daxelson
United States
Member Since: Jul 2008
Member Points: 182
demetrios18 wrote:

are you guys calling me a weak player who posts wrong puzzles?? Those were the actual moves played in a game. Secondly you guys posts puzzles in which you play out moves but who is moving for other side? You cant post a puzzle in which you move for both sides, obviously you will post wrong moves for side you want to lose.

dont hate my puzzles, just appreciate chess


I don't believe anybody said anything here about you personally. What a number of people have pointed out is that what you posted as a "puzzle" does not fit the commonly-understood meaning of "puzzle". Perhaps you should consider posting it in the "Favorite Games" section.

When you post something as a puzzle, you are challenging people to see if they can solve it. In this particular case, there is no such solution. Good play by black would have resulted in a win for black. When you played the game, you won because black did not play very well, not because you found a "winning line" that could not be defended.

 

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