Number of Possible Chess Configurations

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8th February 2009, 12:21pm
#61
by ichabod801
Maryland United States
Member Since: Dec 2008
Member Points: 802
TheGrobe wrote:

ichabod801, pawns can't move to the first or second rank so there are 5 pawn moves, not including promotion, per pawn not 6.


No, black pawns can move to the second rank, but not the seventh. White pawns can move to the seventh rank but not the second. So "b2" and "b7" are both valid pawn moves, even if they are each only valid for one color.

8th February 2009, 12:27pm
#62
by TheGrobe
Calgary Canada
Member Since: Nov 2007
Member Points: 4616

Ahh -- gotcha.  I notice you also mention that kings can't check, but they can reveal a check (and also a mate) and so should have been included.

8th February 2009, 12:46pm
#63
by ichabod801
Maryland United States
Member Since: Dec 2008
Member Points: 802
TheGrobe wrote:

Ahh -- gotcha.  I notice you also mention that kings can't check, but they can reveal a check (and also a mate) and so should have been included.


Good point. I corrected the orignial post. That adds 256 moves, bringing the total up to 45,586

8th February 2009, 12:48pm
#64
by pvmike
Voorhees, NJ United States
Member Since: Feb 2008
Member Points: 947

There are 168024 possible legal positions with just a King and pawn vs. king endgame

8th February 2009, 01:13pm
#65
by Niven42
West Lafayette, Indiana United States
Member Since: Feb 2008
Member Points: 1261

Just do a Google or Wiki search for Shannon Number:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon_number

8th February 2009, 01:37pm
#66
by ichabod801
Maryland United States
Member Since: Dec 2008
Member Points: 802
pvmike wrote:

There are 168024 possible legal positions with just a King and pawn vs. king endgame


Are you sure? I'm getting 334,496. If you assume the pawn is one color or the other (say, white), I get 167,248. So I guess you're doing that, and not accounting for the fact that a pawn that hasn't moved yet cannot cause check.

8th February 2009, 02:02pm
#67
by jhuschstp
St. Paul United States
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 234
joetheplumber wrote:
elcabesa wrote:

you are right

so a better solution is sum of all combination with 32 pieces + 32 *sum of all combination with 31 pieces + 32^2 *sum of allcombination with 30 pieces etc.. +32^31 sumof all combination with 1 pieces

wow

64!/32! +32 *64!/33!+ 32^2*64/34!+.. +32^31*64!

= 64!/32!* (1+32/33+32^2/(33*34) + 32^3/(33*34*35)+....+ 32^31/(33*34*35*...*64))

=4.8e53*(1+0.97+0.91+0,83+0.74+0.65+0,57+...)

=(circa) 5e54

I hope

the number is far from perfect.. but it's near other approximation


yes, but in all fairness there really are only 12 pieces, since all but king and queen have another.


I think the two bishops are pretty different from each other.

8th February 2009, 02:05pm
#68
by Nytik
Southampton United Kingdom
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 4617
jhuschstp wrote:
joetheplumber wrote:
elcabesa wrote:

you are right

so a better solution is sum of all combination with 32 pieces + 32 *sum of all combination with 31 pieces + 32^2 *sum of allcombination with 30 pieces etc.. +32^31 sumof all combination with 1 pieces

wow

64!/32! +32 *64!/33!+ 32^2*64/34!+.. +32^31*64!

= 64!/32!* (1+32/33+32^2/(33*34) + 32^3/(33*34*35)+....+ 32^31/(33*34*35*...*64))

=4.8e53*(1+0.97+0.91+0,83+0.74+0.65+0,57+...)

=(circa) 5e54

I hope

the number is far from perfect.. but it's near other approximation


yes, but in all fairness there really are only 12 pieces, since all but king and queen have another.


I think the two bishops are pretty different from each other.


Yes, but the point is that a bishop on 'square A' is the same as a bishop on 'square A'.

8th February 2009, 02:17pm
#69
by GuyOnTheCouch
tn United States
Member Since: Nov 2007
Member Points: 61

"Kasner and Newman estimate that the total of possible moves in a game of chess is 10 to the power of (10 to the 50th). This is a figure for which we have no name. It is composed first by taking a one with fifty zeros after it, thus: 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 and then multiplying ten by itself that many times. An ordinary 200 page book accommodates 330,000 letters and numerals; three such volumes would provide space for about a million numerals. To write the number 10 to the 10th to the 50th power would take 30,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 volumes: all this space being required merely to write down the numeral indicating all the different moves in a chess game."

oO yeah surprised me to.

8th February 2009, 03:05pm
#70
by RetGuvvie98
Manassas, VA United States
Member Since: Sep 2007
Member Points: 3877
ichabod801 wrote:
TheGrobe wrote:

ichabod801, pawns can't move to the first or second rank so there are 5 pawn moves, not including promotion, per pawn not 6.


No, black pawns can move to the second rank, but not the seventh. White pawns can move to the seventh rank but not the second. So "b2" and "b7" are both valid pawn moves, even if they are each only valid for one color.


but: in order for any pawn to reach a 'second rank'  e.g. b2 or b7, there must be something missing off the board - as every pawn is blocked by an opposing pawn in the initial position - and when something is captured, --- DEPENDING ON WHAT IS CAPTURED --- the number of possible moves remaining will be drastically reduced by some number - quite variable and impossible to quantify with a formula that actually accounts for the variability in a rational sense.

 

  You did not mention that reduction in your formula - making your formula invalid in the extreme because you have credited BOTH SIDES with potential to move all pawns to the enemy second rank (their own seventh rank) and that is physically impossible.

    Now that I mention it, that feature alone renders this an irrational exercise by those who have time on their hands.  the reduction in remaining possible moves or positions depends entirely on exactly what is captured and how many pawns remain after exchanges occur.

 

   applying rational thought to the irrational babblings.

8th February 2009, 03:09pm
#71
by TheGrobe
Calgary Canada
Member Since: Nov 2007
Member Points: 4616

I think the exercise was to enumerate the set of possible move notations irrespective of what preceded or followed the move.  In that context, the peice that previously occupied the spot the pawn is moving to (on the second or seventh rank) is irrelevant.

8th February 2009, 03:50pm
#72
by ichabod801
Maryland United States
Member Since: Dec 2008
Member Points: 802
RetGuvvie98 wrote:

but: in order for any pawn to reach a 'second rank'  e.g. b2 or b7, there must be something missing off the board - as every pawn is blocked by an opposing pawn in the initial position - and when something is captured, --- DEPENDING ON WHAT IS CAPTURED --- the number of possible moves remaining will be drastically reduced by some number - quite variable and impossible to quantify with a formula that actually accounts for the variability in a rational sense.

 

  You did not mention that reduction in your formula - making your formula invalid in the extreme because you have credited BOTH SIDES with potential to move all pawns to the enemy second rank (their own seventh rank) and that is physically impossible.

    Now that I mention it, that feature alone renders this an irrational exercise by those who have time on their hands.  the reduction in remaining possible moves or positions depends entirely on exactly what is captured and how many pawns remain after exchanges occur.

 

   applying rational thought to the irrational babblings.


My calculations were not "invalid in the extreme" just because they don't answer the question you are interested in. I never stipulated or intended the count to be limited to one game. It was intended to be a count of the possible moves in all possible games, "move" being defined as a move with a distinct expression in algebraic notation. I think the first sentence of my post was pretty clear about that.

Please work on your "rational thought."

8th February 2009, 04:11pm
#73
by RetGuvvie98
Manassas, VA United States
Member Since: Sep 2007
Member Points: 3877
rickyk586 wrote:

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post the question.

How many ACTUAL chess board configurations are their?  I HAVE been able to find sites with answers to this question that include boards with extra pieces (like a board full of white Kings)

...................

actual board configurations - as stated above in the initial posting - -     implies legally achievable inherently in the conceptualization.  but all that is irrelevant if one (as some postings have postulated) allows permutations of positions where pawns have actually 'passed' other pawns without capturing anything, and then the hypothetical (non-realistic fantasy) engages in fantasyland musings, rather than realistic chess.


8th February 2009, 05:24pm
#74
by ichabod801
Maryland United States
Member Since: Dec 2008
Member Points: 802

Thank you for the non sequitur.

8th February 2009, 05:38pm
#75
by kingforce
London United Kingdom
Member Since: Sep 2008
Member Points: 503

hmmm, quite a lot of chat about this interesting subject, I will get my chess board out right now and work out every single possible position, I will post the answer as soon as humanly possible, then when everyone knows the correct answer, we can all relax!!! don't worry guys, I'm doing it for the team!!! 

9th February 2009, 12:10am
#76
by artfizz
South (GMT) +rT United Kingdom
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 3435

A quick summary of the questions posed and the numbers supplied, for new-comers to the discussion ...

How many ACTUAL chess board configurations are there? No extra pieces – but can include impossible-to-reach positions (Ricky586)

1050 distinct board positions (artfizz)

 

1055  (elcabesa)

The game tree complexity? - which is all possible positions (Eniamar)

10120 Shannon's number (Eniamar)

the average chess game length (Eniamar)

80 (Eniamar)

Board positions with 32 pieces? (cuendillar)

1042  (cuendillar)

number of legal positions with JUST 2 KINGS on the board? (artfizz)

3,612 (ichabod801)

possible legal positions with just a King and pawn vs. king endgame? (pvcmike)

168,024 (pvcmike)

 

334,496 or 167,248. (ichabod801)

which will be solved first: chess or chess.com? (artfizz)

Chess ( RetGuvvie98)

possible chess games?.... (Sleeper)

22600 (Sleeper)

The number of possible moves, recorded in short algebraic? (artfizz)

~2,000 (artfizz)

 

17,306 (ichabod801)

 

45,586 (ichabod801)

longest single move in short algebraic notation? (artfizz)

6 characters? (artfizz)

 

Nf3xd4++ [8 characters] (ichabod801)

ways to choose a set of Chess men from a standard set, if that set must include at least the two kings? (ichabod801)

236,196 (ichabod801)

total of possible moves in a game of chess? (GuyOnTheCouch)

10 to the power of (10 to the 50th)  ( GuyOnTheCouch)

9th February 2009, 03:10am
#77
by RetGuvvie98
Manassas, VA United States
Member Since: Sep 2007
Member Points: 3877

AWARDS FOR HIGHEST Number of responses:

 

FIRST/Second PLACE: Tie between:    artfizz  and ichabod801 - 7

third place to:  Eniamar - 4

honorable mention to:  cuendillar, GuyOnTheCouch, pvcmike, and last:  Sleeper.  with 2 each.

all others:  honorable mention,

 

and

       thanks for reading to the rest.

9th February 2009, 03:43am
#78
by dee_from_ott
Canada
Member Since: Sep 2008
Member Points: 64

a gazillion!

9th February 2009, 06:45am
#79
by TheGrobe
Calgary Canada
Member Since: Nov 2007
Member Points: 4616

I know I already plugged it earlier, but there is also some discussion here about the longest possible game:

I came to a ceiling of 5900 with some certainty that it is less than that.  Revan24 arrived at 5870.5, although I'm not sure exactly how as I've not seen his calculations, I arrived at 5897.5 (the means by which I discounted half-tempos from the ceiling leaving a lot of opportunity for error).

Any other thoughts on that one?

9th February 2009, 09:06am
#80
by artfizz
South (GMT) +rT United Kingdom
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 3435
TheGrobe wrote:

I know I already plugged it earlier, but there is also some discussion here about ...


It appears the URL has gone AWOL. Could you possibly supply it again?


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