How to become a top-notch chess player

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26th February 2009, 11:56am
#21
by careyfan
Bay Area, California United States
Member Since: Dec 2008
Member Points: 95
dsarkar wrote:

Myah, a beginner cannot evaluate. But what can he do other than suck his/her thumb or pay for coaches/online services/softwares? This is not a perfect method, but something that can be done - do you have a better FREE one?

By hard labor and practice the sense of good and bad moves will come gradually. 


 

I can't imagine any serious who'd have enough interest in the game after trying this method.

Does your method work? 

I'm sure it CAN work for that extremely rare person willing to put in this sort of tedious work and operate like a machine.  From a practical perspective, how can you possibly make this method of learning less boring?   Because I'd bet my bottom dollar that the average SERIOUS beginner gets burnt out VERY quickly and loses his interest in Chess (yes, even correspondence Chess) by using this method.

I think you'll find that the average person, serious as he may be about becoming competent at a new endeavor, will NOT be receptive to this learning approach...because it's too tedious and time-consuming. 

I believe you'll also find that your method will also be more effective for someone who ALREADY has a good working knowledge of Chess principles and tactics-- not for a beginner.

23rd April 2009, 06:01am
#22
by Kendo-Ka
Scotland
Member Since: Apr 2009
Member Points: 2

Catalyst_kh I happen to have the book I think your talking about. Laughing In English the book is called How to think like a grandmaster. A better book for intermediate players is How to choose a chess move by Andrew Soltis which mentions Kotov's method. Neither of these books on calculation are of use to a beginner however. They should get a general book on openings and a book on the middle game, endgame and tactics. If they are a complete beginner of course a more general chess book on the rules etc would be best. The books I would suggest they get are Winning Chess Openings by Seirawan and Winning Chess Tactics. Also How to Reassess Your Chess by Jeremy Silman and the Amateur's Mind. For endgames you can't go wrong with Silman's Complete Endgame Course. I can't however endorse dsarkars idea since like people have already said here its more likely to put them off chess.

24th May 2009, 06:12pm
#23
by Triple_A
Texas United States
Member Since: Apr 2009
Member Points: 1613

cool this will help a lot

24th May 2009, 06:18pm
#24
by IM IMCheap
Novosibirsk Russia
Member Since: May 2009
Member Points: 185

I guess it's better to study principles of chess first. Without knowing them it makes absolutely no sense to go over myriads of emerging positions which you don't know how to evaluate. Example 1. e4 e5 2.Qh5 - many beginners think that they're doing just great, although the opening is dubious.

24th May 2009, 06:28pm
#25
by socket2me
Ft. Collins, Colorado United States
Member Since: Dec 2008
Member Points: 568

To beginners, like me, look at all possible moves by the opponent, think why did this person move here... there must be a reason for this.  Think and respond, develop your pieces and respond to a missed assault.

Works for me, but I'm only a strong beginner.  It's up to you if you think that's valid or not.

24th May 2009, 06:41pm
#26
by erikido23
United States
Member Since: Sep 2007
Member Points: 982
RobertTG wrote:

Here is a start....

As the game starts, White has only 20 possible moves on his first move.

 1. a4 Ware opening

1. a3 Anderssen opening

1. b4 Polish opening

1. b3 nimzo-larsen opening

1. c4 English opening

1. c3 Saragossa opening

1. d4 Queen Pawn opening

1. d3 Mieses opening

1. e4 King pawn opening

1. e3 Van't Kruijs opening

1. f4 Bird's opening

1. f3 Gedult's opening

1. g4 Grob opening

1. g3 Hungarian opening

1. h4 Kadas opening

1. h3 Clemenz opening

1. Na3 Sodium attack

1. Nc3 Van Geet opening

1. Nf3 Zukertort opening

1. Nh3 Amar opening

Black then has a possible 20 moves in response to each of those opening moves. So, after the first move by both players there are 400 different positions on the board. (1 ply)

When white makes his second move, there are more than 20 possible choices and the same with blacks second move. still that would make this tree diagram have over than 160,000 positions.(2 ply)

"5.Carry on steps 3 & 4 for 3-plys (3 your moves, 3 opponent moves) - it will be huge initially, but as you become more experienced, this will be smaller."

Ok, 3 ply will give me a diagram with over 64,000,000 possibilities...many are duplicate....and after taking the duplicates out....I still have 9 million possibilities? And you want a beginner to continue this to 5 to 8 ply? Is that right?

 

"8. Repeat steps 6 & 7 until you have 5-8 ply (at least 5).
9.Now go through all of them - select the best-looking line."


 Just had to correct your math a little.  If there are 20 first moves and 20 which can be responded to you actually have 20! (20 x19x18x17 etc)

24th May 2009, 07:53pm
#27
by erikido23
United States
Member Since: Sep 2007
Member Points: 982
dsarkar wrote:

You do not get my point - you do not check EVERY possible line like a computer, but the probable lines only - that cuts it down a bit...


 So then basically you are writing down what every player(even beginner) already does.  Look at what I can do and then what my opponent can respond.  I don't think that is anything revolutionary or that will improve people all that much(I am not a beginner so it would not be inappropriate for me to try it anyway).  Could you improve that way.  Sure, but no more(and probably less) than learning some tactical patterns such as pins, forks, skewers, removal of the guard etc and positional ideas such as weak squares open files etc. 

24th May 2009, 08:05pm
#28
by erikido23
United States
Member Since: Sep 2007
Member Points: 982

I will take something from the fitness world.

 

Everything works and nothing works forever. 

13th June 2009, 08:21pm
#29
by Weirwindle
Maine United States
Member Since: Apr 2009
Member Points: 208

Totall possible games without any deletion of moves = 10^123 moves. Took me forever to write the tree. LOL.

15th June 2009, 07:10pm
#30
by elVacio
Alcalá de Henares Spain
Member Since: Apr 2009
Member Points: 81

I just have one question... Why?  Is this just a mental exercise?  Or is there some real benefit to understanding the game of chess...  I would like to think that there are more effective alternatives to what seems like a Pavlov's dogs approach to chess.  Just my thought.

15th June 2009, 09:06pm
#31
by dc1985
Alabama United States
Member Since: Apr 2008
Member Points: 735
dsarkar wrote:

This posting is for beginners who yet have no insight into the good and bad moves, and are not well-versed in pins, forks, discovered attacks, skewers, etc. - not for advanced players who have already developed a sense of finding the right moves in the game. Players who can by intuition detect traps, winning combinations do not need this - but that happens after several years of playing.


There are quite a few exceptions, such as new talents. I've been playing seriously for all of one year, starting with learning the rules, and can detect traps and see winning combinations. I think a more realistic timeframe there is several months, not Several Years.

I do, however, believe that this is a good learning guide for beginners. I'm sure it works very well, teaching new players how to calculate lines in advance. Thank you for taking the time to post this, I may use it for a class sometime...

15th June 2009, 10:32pm
#32
by jollyschwa
Chicago, IL United States
Member Since: Mar 2009
Member Points: 31

I think dsarkar's being a little misunderstood. 

It seems his method is more of a way for beginners to organize their thoughts, than to learn to master this game.  If so, I think it'll prove to be a useful tool.

Before I nake a move - OTB, correspondence, live online, whatever - I ask myself, "What are my options and what are the consequences (good or bad)?"  Now, you can't accurately answer these questions without some tactical know-how and a general understanding of why a position is good or bad, but a beginner might find it helpful to actually write things down until they can properly visualize.  This might free some needed brain cells to concentrate on tactics and strategy.

If a newbie were to combine this method with an opening repertoire and a good deal of tactics practice and endgame study, I could see how it would help.

16th June 2009, 01:14am
#33
by chesscrazy018
bangalore India
Member Since: Jun 2009
Member Points: 36

Hey i am just a beginner and i dont get most of it!!

16th June 2009, 04:39am
#34
by Scarblac
Arnhem Netherlands
Member Since: Nov 2008
Member Points: 1869
dsarkar wrote:

You do not get my point - you do not check EVERY possible line like a computer, but the probable lines only - that cuts it down a bit...


No, because as you repeat all the time, this is for BEGINNERS, who DON'T KNOW YET what the probable / good moves are.

You make a method for beginners who can't recognize good moves, that can only work even a tiny bit if you only look at good moves.

16th June 2009, 04:50am
#35
by Scarblac
Arnhem Netherlands
Member Since: Nov 2008
Member Points: 1869
dsarkar wrote:

Scarblac, what you say is true. Players above beginners level do not need it, and beginner's cannot recognize good/bad moves. But they have to start somewhere - just guessing at moves won't make them advance. If they have a mnetor, coach, good books, well and good. If not, this is the next best thing.


No, having to look at all moves is the worst thing. It takes impossibly long - it cannot be done!

I think you should say, write down all the moves that look good to you (you can give them some guidelines for this, e.g. try to control the center, keep your king safe, attack his), plus definitely all checks, captures and 1-move threats.

You say you want them to start on something that is similar to what the GMs do - well they don't start considering all moves and then leave out the unimportant ones, they look at what the important ones are. The other way around.

16th June 2009, 05:00am
#36
by Scarblac
Arnhem Netherlands
Member Since: Nov 2008
Member Points: 1869
dsarkar wrote: How does what you say accounts for the brilliancies - do they crop up if GMs do not scan every possible 1st move, even unlikely moves?

 Yes. They don't start checking every possible move to see if perhaps happens to be a brilliancy, that takes too long.

Instead, they see that they can mate the king if only they could remove piece X (for instance), then they search for ways to do that. OR, the brilliancy has a standard pattern (like most), they recognize the pattern and look at the move to see if the pattern works.

It's the difference between just trying everything, and reasoning to work out / recognizing which things you need to look at.

16th June 2009, 05:05am
#37
by NM Reb
Lisbon Portugal
Member Since: Sep 2007
Member Points: 4223

This thread is about becoming a "top-notch" chess player. Whats the definition of "top-notch" ?

16th June 2009, 05:28am
#38
by KingAlex24
New Jersey United States
Member Since: Sep 2008
Member Points: 93

i want my wasted brain cell back

16th June 2009, 12:12pm
#39
by jollyschwa
Chicago, IL United States
Member Since: Mar 2009
Member Points: 31

To expand it a bit on your concept dsarker...

Every game has a 'notes' section as well as the ability to visually analyze your options via the 'Analyze' button (located right below the messages/moves/details/notes section.

I would definitely recommend these tools to someone just starting out in chess.  They could jot down the options they like in the notes section, then play with them a bit in the Analyzer.

14th July 2009, 06:22am
#40
by RazaAdeel
Lahore Pakistan
Member Since: Jun 2008
Member Points: 397
dsarkar wrote:

 RazaAdeel
what you say is right - if we calculate ALL variations without deleting some...

at each ply we have to delete variations which WE think not good (we may be wrong)... This is a way to train serious beginners to think along the lines of a future GM - I still this apply this laborious process in highly complicated positions with success...

 

for serious people only...

 

if we added a spoon of water for every people who cannot give positive suggestions only negative ones, we would have a pond...


sorry I didn't read it to carefully..Embarassed


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