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Game drawn - insufficient material???


  • 20 months ago · Quote · #1

    CarVilla

    Why this is happening (repeatedly) in Live chess even though there is enough material? Sometimes pawns or even when about to crown.

    At this point my opponent ran out of time and I just got a draw.

    Quite odd.

    Is it happening to you too?

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #2

    BrockLee

    I saw a game that ended like that. I think it means the one that actually has the time to move and everything can't checkmate his opponent no matter how many free moves ha has. However, if it was the other way around, They'd lose on time. I'm not sure exactly though.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #3

    Sangwin

    Yes this has happened to me.  The best white could of achieve was a draw with only the King.  So you are not entitled to the full point I suppose. 

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #4

    orangehonda

    Hmm, black ran out of time and the message was "insufficient mating material" ... yeah I'm going to be up all night trying to figure this one out.

    Anyway this is good to remember when you're ahead on the board but don't have time to checkmate.  If you see you have 10 seconds left but you're far from mate, try to eat up all their remaining pieces/pawns even if it's a sacrifice.  That way you wont lose.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #5

    orangehonda

    BrockLee wrote:

    I saw a game that ended like that. I think it means the one that actually has the time to move and everything can't checkmate his opponent no matter how many free moves ha has. However, if it was the other way around, They'd lose on time. I'm not sure exactly though.


    The same reason anyone ever loses on time -- because you ran out of time.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #6

    CarVilla

    orangehonda wrote:

    Hmm, black ran out of time and the message was "insufficient mating material" ... yeah I'm going to be up all night trying to figure this one out.

    Anyway this is good to remember when you're ahead on the board but don't have time to checkmate.  If you see you have 10 seconds left but you're far from mate, try to eat up all their remaining pieces/pawns even if it's a sacrifice.  That way you wont lose.


    That's exactly what I tried to do, to eat up time. Even, I would have let him crown as with just a few secs remaining in the clock he couldn't have checked-mated me.

    The point is, why a draw 'by insufficient material' if there is material enough?

    At this point it is a question of time and the chess.com application is not working properly. Unless, of course, there is a rule (that we don't know).

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #7

    echecs06

    The rules are the rules! I f you don't like them, pick up your marbles and go play elsewhere.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #8

    TadDude

    CarVilla wrote:

    ...

    At this point it is a question of time and the chess.com application is not working properly. Unless, of course, there is a rule (that we don't know).


    Is that "the royal we"?

    http://www.fide.com/component/handbook/?id=124&view=article

    6.9 Except where one of the Articles: 5.1.a, 5.1.b, 5.2.a, 5.2.b, 5.2.c applies, if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by the player. However, the game is drawn, if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #9

    CarVilla

    Sorry echecs06 but this is not a question of rules, there appears to be something wrong with the (chess.com) application. How can it say 'insufficient material' if there is a pawn about to be crown into a queen. That is more than enough to win a game.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #10

    CarVilla

    TadDude. It wasn't or it isn't a question of moves or number of moves. When the time runs out it will say 'drawn by insufficient material' rather than awarding the game to the one who still has time.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #11

    TadDude

    CarVilla wrote:

    TadDude. It wasn't or it isn't a question of moves or number of moves. When the time runs out it will say 'drawn by insufficient material' rather than awarding the game to the one who still has time.


    "However, the game is drawn, if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves."

    Black, the opponent, ran out of time. This is normally a loss for Black except if White cannot checkmate.

    White has insufficient material to checkmate Black.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #13

    AnthonyCG

    Because White has only a king he can never win a game even on time. He can only hope for a draw at that point.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #14

    CarVilla

    TadDude wrote:
    CarVilla wrote:

    TadDude. It wasn't or it isn't a question of moves or number of moves. When the time runs out it will say 'drawn by insufficient material' rather than awarding the game to the one who still has time.


    "However, the game is drawn, if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves."

    Black, the opponent, ran out of time. This is normally a loss for Black except if White cannot checkmate.

    White has insufficient material to checkmate Black.


    Yes, white has insufficient material to win but black does have enough material to win (a pawn to become possibly a queen) but no time... then he/she should loose by time.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #15

    furtiveking

    AnthonyCG wrote:

    Because White has only a king he can never win a game even on time. He can only hope for a draw at that point.


    This is correct. This is the way that FIDE rules have been enforced for years. In the above game, there are no circumstances in which white can win. The best they can hope for is a draw, when black runs out of time, that is what white is awarded with, a draw.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #16

    CarVilla

    Thanks Furtiveking, that sounds more reasonable. Though in Live Chess time, if you are playing at 5 mins, it is a big issue.

    Maybe it shouldn't say 'insufficient material'

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #17

    zezpwn44

    I'm confused as to what your problem is.  It says "Black to move," so I'm assuming black ran out of time.  White has a lone king, and therefore cannot win.  White has insufficient material.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #18

    clms_chess

    The above players are correct... the "draw by insufficient material" IS refering to WHITE not having enough material to win here. I watched a game end at a tournament in the OPEN section where the side that ran out of time had a Queen and King vs a King and was within two moves of mate when his flag fell. I was not familiar with the rule and I thought that the side with the lone King had escaped with a win. Later... after looking at the various sections win/loss cross tables.. I noticed that that specific game was posted as drawn. I almost made a fool of myself by turning to a few players and pointing it out and was set to announce the mistake "to the world" when they gently explained to me why it was drawn.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #19

    grantchamp

    CarVilla wrote:

    Why this is happening (repeatedly) in Live chess even though there is enough material? Sometimes pawns or even when about to crown.

    At this point my opponent ran out of time and I just got a draw.

    Quite odd.

    Is it happening to you too?


     You cannot mate your opponent with only a king and your opponent could but ran out of time. It is only fair that it was a draw since you had no chance to win besides on time which, do to the rules is impossible. Hope this answers your question. Cool

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #20

    CarVilla

    grantchamp wrote:
    CarVilla wrote:

    Why this is happening (repeatedly) in Live chess even though there is enough material? Sometimes pawns or even when about to crown.

    At this point my opponent ran out of time and I just got a draw.

    Quite odd.

    Is it happening to you too?


     You cannot mate your opponent with only a king and your opponent could but ran out of time. It is only fair that it was a draw since you had no chance to win besides on time which, do to the rules is impossible. Hope this answers your question.


    Grantchamps. Thanks for your comment and I agree with your assessment. The problem is that we are/were playing Live chess, at 5 minutes where time is a big issue. One, then, will have to assume that at this stage and situation time is no longer an issue and wait for the draw.


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