Making Premoves optional (with workflow)

There comes a point when adding options makes things worse / too complicated e.g.

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     Know your basics. As most people know, there is caffeinated (regular), decaffeinated (decaf) and "half-calf" coffee. A shot of espresso is smaller, but offers a condensed quantity of what amount to more or less a small cup of coffee. It's brewed from a finer grain, and is stronger per ounce.

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     Add milk, if you choose. There are a few milk-based coffee concoctions. A cafe au lait is brewed with equal parts coffee and hot milk. A cafe latte is espresso with steamed milk. In lattes, the milk is frothier. A macchiato is a an espresso with just a hint of milk foam.

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     Don't stop at milk. There are a number of coffee additions that add to the flavor. Some are combined with milk, and some stand alone. An americano is an espresso shot poured into a cup of piping hot water. A drink "con panna" means adding whipped cream to your coffee. This is not unlike adding heavy whipping cream and a dash of sugar. It amounts to a sweeter, creamier coffee drink. Various syrups are also used to spice up the flavor, including vanilla, hazelnut and and caramel. A mocha is a latte brewed with chocolate.

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     Make it an adult beverage. An Irish coffee has a shot of whiskey, heavy whipping cream and three sugar cubes.

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     Know how to order. Shots of espresso and espresso-based drinks are order in single, double, triple and quad. This distinction determine how many shots of espresso you're getting. Size generally range short, tall and grande (small, medium and large, respectively).

Says the person who does not use premove I bet. lol look man I play Rhythm games aside from Chess, I have very good timing when it comes to this kind of thing. If I ever lose any time using my own method it's cause I am opposing an opponent with lag or I am lagging myself.

But as if that isn't enough you're contradicting yourself right at the end by saying mastering them both equals two really fast moves. lol Okay, if you say so. I'd rather make my five or six turns without losing even a hundredth of a second as opposed to losing .50 of one by using premoves that one. Seriously, if you're using premoves learn the hover technique. It doesn't work OTB obviously but for online if you have something worked outsuch as a forced mate and you only have around one or two seconds left on your clock, use it and you will win.

This also counters people who DO use premove. Their moves are pre-made, meaning they have no way to change them last second. If your opponent makes a different move then you were expecting, lose a little more time and formulate a plan. (It's not like bullet players need ten minutes of endgame thinking to really get an edge)

So I can either order a half-caff macchiato, or a grande quad-shot espresso, but I can't order a COFFEE, BLACK, NO SUGAR because its too complicated ?  

Sounds too complicated... I agree.. get rid of premoves and make it simple.  :) 

 I use premoves constantly a bunch of times.

Your hover technique is possibly slower than premoves in that you have to look at your opponents move to determine whether it was a blunder or not. So basically it you do that everytime, its bound to take more than 0.1 secs (NOT 0.50 secs). And if your opponent does make a move where your hover was a blunder, and you take it back, well good for you =P But mastering premoves means you don't take those risks pretty much.

And btw if what you say is true, although it doesn't really make sense for me, w/e, that premoves are worse, then its unfair again isnt it. + i doubt many people think premove are a disadvantage, and in truth in practice, they're an advantage for the majority. How many people can play like you do? Most probably just play quite normally, wait for the move then move, might hover a little at times.

As to your last statement, i don't agree. hover does not counter premove, its just a weaker version of it, less risk and less reward. of course it can pay off at times, but it doesn't fully counter it; premove IS faster. trust me.

And im not contradicting myself. Premove + hover, if your premove doesn't work (eg recapture a piece), then you can use your hover too and comes to the same effect as yours. infact, maybe 60% of the time your premove doesn't work, so all that happens is it goes back to your hover technique.

If your thinking premoves as in advancing a knight, then your wrong. Premove is for recapturing a piece usually, or capturing with CHECK. don't advance a piece premoved, because thats calling for serious blunders. See, so that way, usually the premove DOESN'T WORK, and then your back to the hover technique that you use, so premove IS an advantage. But then again, not a lot of players play like this because they havn't "mastered" it yet. On "best type" of play, im pretty sure premove is an advantage.

And overall in general, its probably an advantage too, because i believe people arn't stupid enough and are wary enough to not premove high risk blunders.

Also with your forced mate thingy, why not premove it? premove IS FASTER, maybe you made a mistake with your 0.5secs. i honestly do not believe you can move faster than 0.1 secs consistently, BECAUSE of lag etc online, but premove negates this kind of thing. See? Maybe you might be faster on a extremely ridicolously smooth connection. Also again you have to check whether the move is safe or not, otherwise you'd justbe doing a "premove" using a hover. maybe that hover is faster in your case. w/e. but you can use premove AND hover. that beats your technique guranteed.

oh and also, realising your premove doesn't work takes literally no time. being a rhythm guy you are, you will find it almsot nothing i guess, as it occurs at the same time the opponent moves his move you see your premove fail. if you drop it a fraction of a second later than your opponent moves, then for me thats like double premove, but riskier than premove + hover. your hover effectively becoems your 2nd premove; if your 1st one didn't work (if it did it overrides your hover move), then your 2nd hover one comes down straight away. But i prefer to just premove + hover, incase the hover is a blunder etc safe move etc etc. Don't have to hover all the time at all anyway, usually theres points in the position eg middle game where perhaps its not wise to choose a hover move so quickly.

If people use premoves only to capture, what is the big deal in using it yourself, sir? Especially if it beats my hovering technique?

because people don't like it as they don't see it as part of chess.
and for the last time, i DO use premoves. I use them tons of times, everytime.

oh to clear up confusion, i mean when premove "doesn't work", its as in that you can't move there, eg you couldn't "recapture" your piece as they didn't take it.

Premoves, when used in that fasion, don't really give anyone an advantage on time. If you see what the trade is, know what's going to happen, then use them yourself. Don't be stubborn and not use what is rightfully there to use because you don't feel as if it's "a part of chess". If you're that strung up on premoves don't play bullet, I rarely if ever use them on Bullet but when I do I'd prefer my hover method.

Thats what people complain about, if you don't like premoves, don't play bullet or you'll be disadvantaged is the outlook they take on it, and that may be true too argueably and probably is true. So thats no fair, so they complain only naturally - i mean life isnt fair if you want to look at it this way, but theres nothing wrong with complaining where the reason behind it is right.

So when you say don't be stubborn and not use what is rightfully there, thats hardly the point. They can use them if they wish, but they won't like playing chess that way. And also they're probably crap at it :S

"if you're that strung up on them AND wish to play bullet", then just create this easy option for np and p, and problem solved!

"premoves, when used in that fashion, don't really give anyone an advantage on time": uh, they allow for two possibly fast moves, so they definetly do save time as opposed to normal play or your hover technique. Also if you DO know what the trade is, and DO use them, then you DO save time don't you? every little time matters in bullet ---> a good enough advantage to be called an advantage.

"then use them yourself" - talking to the general "premove haters" probably, but just in case you missed it again, i do use premoves. ignore this last part because the chances are you weren't refering to me.

I know how to settle this :D play me bullet, and ill show you premoves.

edit: as long as we play reasonably well, premoves will show their stuff =P Im willing to prove them better than your hover technique. our difference in skill might create a difference, but after a few games or so we should "feel" a difference/advantage/disadvantage of premoves to your hover etc.

Just like to interject for a second to push a minor point  :_)

While the pros and cons of premoves are an inevitable consequence of any discussion on premoves in bullet - ultimately that isn't why I started this thread.

Instead, the intent is to give people the choice.  ie Playing games with premoves if you like premoves or playing games without premoves if you don't like them, and the ability to pick and choose as you like. 

You shouldn't have to justify why you are, or are not, pro or anti-premove - just as you are not required to justify why you prefer one time control over another. 

Whether its part of setting up the challenge as I proposed at the start of this thread, or a simple checkbox on the seek filter - anything that puts more control in the hands of the players is a good thing IMO. 

Even if you LOVE premoves, and would never contemplate playing without them - please give some consideration to the posibility that not everyone feels the same way, and think about whether or not something can be done to accomodate those who would rather play without them - without fundamentally breaking the system.

I've put forward one possibility, but there are certainly others available.  If you have a concept - put it on the table. 

Finally, I also appreciate that there are many, many features or aggravations, pet peaves or wants that people ccan push for, and most of them cannot be implemented.

That said, I believe premoves are a particularly controversial part of the game - most notably for Bullet matches, and anything that removes conflict and provides a broader solution is a good thing.

Fight meh :3

lol of course! I have no qualms having a friendly match. =) Just make them unrated if you don't mind, you're a good deal stronger then I am.

I can't be bothered to arrange it though lol. Offer me a friend request or something, i've sent out too many to be allowed to send another one due to a chess.com problem (you can still send out friend requests on live chess, which might be on purpose because you only meet them for a bit, and/or you might forget to click on his profile and forget his name)

Thats it.  Pull the pin time. [EDIT] sorry, had his big speil, but I just don't give a ... anymore.  I'm out - with or without optional premoves[/EDIT]

 Actually no :D

They should allow premoves in turn-based games - then I would have an excuse for sucking.

Although i like to use premove, i was thinking at this same idea, and i agree with it.