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Psychological effect of unjust punishment


  • 14 months ago · Quote · #1

    Xilmi

    For me, and I think for many others, being punished without being aware of having done anything wrong is a very frustrating feeling.

    That's why, as operator of a site, I would try to avoid to frustrate my users.

    The thing is, that tactics trainer does exactly that.

    You are presented with a puzzle and after you solved it, depending on the speed of others and your own, you may end up being punished for all the effort you spent on it.
    And as I said: That's very frustrating. 

    Now you might argue: "But in real chess you also have to play the clock."

    Yes, that's right. And I'm not even saying that time should not matter. But there's a slight difference: In normal play I see the clock counting down while I play!

    In Tactics-Trainer I see the clock counting up and won't be told how much time I had until after!

    That's like playing on hidden time-controls and you don't know which one. Would you Blitz your moves if you knew you have half an hour? No. Would you take your time and analyze the consequences of every move if you had only 1 minute? No.

    Then why is it like that in tactics-trainer? Why not simply display the average-solution-time, so we actually know we have to hurry and not surprise us with another "Ha, your double-checking cost you 7 points! Don't do that, might be a bad habit under hidden timecontrols!"

  • 14 months ago · Quote · #2

    Fred-Splott

    I think tactics trainer is pretty awful too. Incidentally in puzzle number 

    #0022908

    I played R to

    queen's first square. I'm sure it wins, in some lines much quicker than the solution and in others about the same. it was marked incorrect. 

  • 13 months ago · Quote · #3

    Xilmi

    Some sort of feedback as of why something like my suggestion isn't considered would be nice.

    Once again lost by time on a problem without any possibility to know how much time you have beforehand.

  • 13 months ago · Quote · #4

    Xilmi

    Apparently Feedback is pretty much being ignored here.

  • 13 months ago · Quote · #5

    apawndown

    The 'rated' tactics trainer (with the clock) is ok if you're training for blitz or bullet,  but can be a big distraction if you're interested solely in improving your tactical play.  Best to disable it.

  • 13 months ago · Quote · #6

    gordonweast

    The only good measure of tactics trainer is the change in how you play your full games.

    The 'rating' is only used to select puzzles of a similar rating.  A given puzzle will go down in rating as more people see it more times and remember the solution.  I'm pretty sure it doesn't remember if you saw it before.  The oldest puzzles will have the lowest ratings, but may still be hard the first time you see them.

  • 13 months ago · Quote · #7

    TetsuoShima

    Xilmi wrote:

    For me, and I think for many others, being punished without being aware of having done anything wrong is a very frustrating feeling.

    That's why, as operator of a site, I would try to avoid to frustrate my users.

    The thing is, that tactics trainer does exactly that.

    You are presented with a puzzle and after you solved it, depending on the speed of others and your own, you may end up being punished for all the effort you spent on it.
    And as I said: That's very frustrating. 

    Now you might argue: "But in real chess you also have to play the clock."

    Yes, that's right. And I'm not even saying that time should not matter. But there's a slight difference: In normal play I see the clock counting down while I play!

    In Tactics-Trainer I see the clock counting up and won't be told how much time I had until after!

    That's like playing on hidden time-controls and you don't know which one. Would you Blitz your moves if you knew you have half an hour? No. Would you take your time and analyze the consequences of every move if you had only 1 minute? No.

    Then why is it like that in tactics-trainer? Why not simply display the average-solution-time, so we actually know we have to hurry and not surprise us with another "Ha, your double-checking cost you 7 points! Don't do that, might be a bad habit under hidden timecontrols!"

    i know what you mean. its devastating if i look all the bills every month, i get punished. I didnt even have glamerous lifestyle, why all the bills??its totally destroying me, i think getting punished without a reason can destroy you.

    That being said i think the tactics trainer is fun.

  • 13 months ago · Quote · #8

    Kindly_Chass

    Any "trainer" type "rating" will take care of itself, its not money in your bank account, or even your registered FIDE rating.

    What you should do is, don't worry about time.  Just try to get the puzzle correct.  You probably will lose points for being slower-than-average for a while.

    But, as you practice more, you should get faster, since doing the puzzles will burn tactical pattern recognition into your subconcious, and therefore you will eventually not only solve the problem, but do it in above-average time.  How long this process takes depends on the person, his study habits, and especially his age.  Younger people absorb pattern recognition faster.

  • 13 months ago · Quote · #9

    TetsuoShima

    Kindly_Chass wrote:

    Any "trainer" type "rating" will take care of itself, its not money in your bank account, or even your registered FIDE rating.

    What you should do is, don't worry about time.  Just try to get the puzzle correct.  You probably will lose points for being slower-than-average for a while.

    But, as you practice more, you should get faster, since doing the puzzles will burn tactical pattern recognition into your subconcious, and therefore you will eventually not only solve the problem, but do it in above-average time.  How long this process takes depends on the person, his study habits, and especially his age.  Younger people absorb pattern recognition faster.

    dont care about my fide rating, but dont mess with the money on my banc account ;)

  • 13 months ago · Quote · #10

    Xilmi

    I know that I shouldn't worry about the time.

    I'm talking about the psychological effect it has that after finding the correct solution:

    "You got it right. Unfortunately the average Joe got it right twice as fast as you and therefore we treat you as if you got it wrong."

    It simply is frustrating.

    The thing is, you have no clue if your time is going to be good or bad until you solve it. I'm not asking for more than simply showing the average solution-time.

  • 13 months ago · Quote · #11

    TetsuoShima

    Xilmi wrote:

    I know that I shouldn't worry about the time.

    I'm talking about the psychological effect it has that after finding the correct solution:

    "You got it right. Unfortunately the average Joe got it right twice as fast as you and therefore we treat you as if you got it wrong."

    It simply is frustrating.

    The thing is, you have no clue if your time is going to be good or bad until you solve it. I'm not asking for more than simply showing the average solution-time.


    in the setup you can choose to have a time bar, that doesnt show the seconds but percentage of how much time you have left.

  • 13 months ago · Quote · #12

    ChessSponge

    Yes you can have a bar down bottom that shows the percentile you're in and it ticks down.

     

    However, I think that tends to be even more detrimental. Since you know that the way the trainer is setup you will lose rating points anyway if you take too long, instead of trying to figure the problem correctly to learn and improve from it, you just grab a piece and move it hoping for the best if the bar is ticking away quickly or has gotten below the middle.

     

    To me the point of a tactics trainer should be 100% to improve your ability to spot tactics. Taking longer in a trainer to make sure you think over the problem to learn from it should be encourage not discouraged as is the case. In fact you can look up all the well known research that shows the longer you think about something the better your brain will retain it. So forcing people to go quickly is in fact not helping them learn.

     

    Yes, I know there is the unrated option, however I want rated so that the problems match up to my current level. I simply don't want the stupid timer as it really adds nothing to the learning process and in many ways lessens it.

     

    All that said, they're never going to change it. People have brought up these points for years.

  • 11 months ago · Quote · #13

    Fred-Splott

    In an actual game, you generally know what sort of problems your opponent is setting you .... whether they're easy or difficult. Here you aren't given a clue. The general level of difficulty varies wildly throughout a session (which in my case consists of three puzzles). One might be a tough, positional problem. The next may be so astoundingly simple and superficial that you feel sure you must have missed something.

    Even with little things like the first problem in a session, you usually can't see the opposing player's previous move and you don't even know your time's ticking. You have to be really focussed to do well on this tactics trainer and a lot of that is nothing to do with solving the puzzle well. General verdict .... just another reason why I wouldn't dream of wasting my money in being a member here, until at least various features are improved.


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