Why is there a Women's World Championship? - Chess Forums - Page 9

Elubas

Mar 26, 2012

0

#161

Wafflemaster: I disagree: the fact that stealing is against the law is not the reason I think stealing the bread is wrong.

"But surely causing pain has more moral implications than, say, theft from a wealthy person who will never notice."

Well, the one stubborn thing I can do is say that not taking the bread is not causing the pain, just like how not giving doesn't make you a murderer.

However, I must say, that was worded beautifully. I mean, it's not really that different from the points you were making previously, but somehow, the specific way that you phrased that makes me think about this thing a little differently.

waffllemaster

Mar 26, 2012

0

#162

Elubas wrote:

I'm sure many people, when I bring up male discrimination, think I am just trying to be difficult, nitpicking the tiniest problems. But to me, it's not subtle. Guys, how often have you seen, whether in life or on TV, a guy comforting a girl when she cries, but does the polar opposite when a guy does it?

The whole concept of "be a gentleman" is something I have a problem with. The point is, you can treat a woman equally, repsect all of their rights, yet be called "not a gentleman" because you were supposed to treat them better than you would treat a male, not just equally. Sometimes, I think our society is conditioned, and, if unintentionally, taught, to be nicer, more lenient to girls than to boys.

This bothered me a lot as a kid too (not that you're a kid, but it bothered me too, and I was a kid once ;)

Because to my innocent little life, I knew nothing of how women were treated by society (and continue to be treated in many parts of the world).

So short answer, it's society trying to make up for past sins... people began to realize women aren't some kind of lesser-human and should have just as many rights and as men.

It's even messier because discrimination still exists.

waffllemaster

Mar 26, 2012

0

#163

Elubas wrote:

Wafflemaster: I disagree: the fact that stealing is against the law is not the reason I think stealing the bread is wrong.

"But surely causing pain has more moral implications than, say, theft from a wealthy person who will never notice."

Well, the one stubborn thing I can do is say that not taking the bread is not causing the pain, just like how not giving doesn't make you a murderer.

However, I must say, that was worded beautifully. I mean, it's not really that different from the points you were making previously, but somehow, the specific way that you phrased that makes me think about this thing a little differently.

And not giving the shot is not causing the pain I'm replacing fatal hunger with fatal disease and stealing bread with painful shot.

You don't have to agree or anything, just trying to make my POV more apparent.

I'm glad you're not one of those legalism type people (I suspected you weren't ;)

Elubas

Mar 26, 2012

0

#164

"So short answer, it's society trying to make up for past sins..."

That's a good point too. I understand that. I guess this is just another "practical method" to make sure that women at least are treated decently, even if they are sometimes treated better

Nevertheless, women's rights are not new anymore, so is that really such a great excuse now?

Monoceros

Mar 26, 2012

0

#165

Elubas wrote:

I'm sure many people, when I bring up male discrimination, think I am just trying to be difficult, nitpicking the tiniest problems. But to me, it's not subtle. Guys, how often have you seen, whether in life or on TV, a guy comforting a girl when she cries, but does the polar opposite when a guy does it?

The whole concept of "be a gentleman" is something I have a problem with. The point is, you can treat a woman equally, repsect all of their rights, yet be called "not a gentleman" because you were supposed to treat them better than you would treat a male, not just equally. Sometimes, I think our society is conditioned, and, if unintentionally, taught, to be nicer, more lenient to girls than to boys.

You simply don't understand it. A woman wants to have equal rights but not treated equally. If I'm carrying something heavy, it makes me happy if a man offers me to help, for me it's heavier than for him. If we walk I want the man to adjust the speed to mine and not leave me behind (and yes that actually did happen so now and then, with the argument that their legs were larger and thus it was difficult for them to walk at my speed and that I just had to adapt to them - losers!).

As for the crying part, I would try to comfort a guy aswell. But it might be a no no for a relationship if he does that to often.

Elubas

Mar 26, 2012

0

#166

"A woman wants to have equal rights but not be treated equally"

! Wow! A statement that you don't often see. But I guess, deep down, a lot of us had that feeling.

No, I get you, with that whole carrying example. It's just that, what seems to be the societal implication sometimes, is not "It's easier for you to carry than me," but instead more like "You should serve your woman because you are lucky that she is even interested in a loser like you."

Don't you ever think that sort of message is being sent? I don't have a specific example at the moment, but at least in my country that atmosphere can't be ignored.

waffllemaster

Mar 26, 2012

0

#167

Elubas wrote:

"So short answer, it's society trying to make up for past sins..."

That's a good point too. I understand that. I guess this is just another "practical method" to make sure that women at least are treated decently, even if they are sometimes treated better

Nevertheless, women's rights are not new anymore, so is that really such a great excuse now?

How women (or any large group) are treated by society can't change that fast. Women's role in society didn't change on the day they were allowed to vote or with the civil rights movement... they're just milestones along the way.

That's why in sitcoms and such it's funny when the man is a bumbling idiot and the wife keeps things together... something is often funny when things are out of context... like finding an astronaut in the brig of a sunken 1800s pirate ship. If the women was bumbling and the man had to correct her every 5 seconds it would be depressing not funny because those stereotypes still hold.

But in a more concerete way you can look at college majors / graduates / pay rates / things like this.

TheGrobe

Mar 26, 2012

0

#168

But wait, with the exception of crying, I don't think any of those examples are gender specific. Different men can carry different weights, and it makes sense that they should be distributed as such. Different women have different lengths of legs, and it's easier for the fast walkers to slow down than visa-versa so the reasonable correction should be obvious when these women walk together.

If you strip these away, it's only on the matter of tears that there's an actual double standard.

waffllemaster

Mar 26, 2012

0

#169

ciljettu wrote:

waffllemaster wrote:

Elubas wrote:

I'm sure many people, when I bring up male discrimination, think I am just trying to be difficult, nitpicking the tiniest problems. But to me, it's not subtle. Guys, how often have you seen, whether in life or on TV, a guy comforting a girl when she cries, but does the polar opposite when a guy does it?

The whole concept of "be a gentleman" is something I have a problem with. The point is, you can treat a woman equally, repsect all of their rights, yet be called "not a gentleman" because you were supposed to treat them better than you would treat a male, not just equally. Sometimes, I think our society is conditioned, and, if unintentionally, taught, to be nicer, more lenient to girls than to boys.

This bothered me a lot as a kid too (not that you're a kid, but it bothered me too, and I was a kid once ;)

Because to my innocent little life, I knew nothing of how women were treated by society (and continue to be treated in many parts of the world).

So short answer, it's society trying to make up for past sins... people began to realize women aren't some kind of lesser-human and should have just as many rights and as men.

It's even messier because discrimination still exists.

You cannot cure anti-female sexism by anti-male sexism. I understand Elubas here, and I have started calling out misandry wherever I see it.

And men are still treated awfully in many parts of the world too.

I don't agree with how far you take certain things, but this post I can easily agree with.

theoreticalboy

Mar 26, 2012

0

#170

I think it's fun how we're pretending men being asked to carry bags is prejudice equivalent to a panel of men deciding how women's reproductive rights should be regulated.

waffllemaster

Mar 26, 2012

0

#171

Monoceros wrote:

Elubas wrote:

I'm sure many people, when I bring up male discrimination, think I am just trying to be difficult, nitpicking the tiniest problems. But to me, it's not subtle. Guys, how often have you seen, whether in life or on TV, a guy comforting a girl when she cries, but does the polar opposite when a guy does it?

The whole concept of "be a gentleman" is something I have a problem with. The point is, you can treat a woman equally, repsect all of their rights, yet be called "not a gentleman" because you were supposed to treat them better than you would treat a male, not just equally. Sometimes, I think our society is conditioned, and, if unintentionally, taught, to be nicer, more lenient to girls than to boys.

You simply don't understand it. A woman wants to have equal rights but not treated equally. If I'm carrying something heavy, it makes me happy if a man offers me to help, for me it's heavier than for him. If we walk I want the man to adjust the speed to mine and not leave me behind (and yes that actually did happen so now and then, with the argument that their legs were larger and thus it was difficult for them to walk at my speed and that I just had to adapt to them - losers!).

As for the crying part, I would try to comfort a guy aswell. But it might be a no no for a relationship if he does that to often.

When it comes to 1 on 1 relationships society can shove it lol. The important thing is to communicate the things that are important to you, and if you find someone who respects that you can have a good relationship. Don't play society games... the man should carry this or that. If he thinks it's important to you, he should offer, and if he doesn't offer and it was important to you, then you should talk about it and he should understand :p

Monoceros

Mar 26, 2012

0

#172

ciljettu wrote:

Monoceros wrote:

Elubas wrote:

I'm sure many people, when I bring up male discrimination, think I am just trying to be difficult, nitpicking the tiniest problems. But to me, it's not subtle. Guys, how often have you seen, whether in life or on TV, a guy comforting a girl when she cries, but does the polar opposite when a guy does it?

The whole concept of "be a gentleman" is something I have a problem with. The point is, you can treat a woman equally, repsect all of their rights, yet be called "not a gentleman" because you were supposed to treat them better than you would treat a male, not just equally. Sometimes, I think our society is conditioned, and, if unintentionally, taught, to be nicer, more lenient to girls than to boys.

You simply don't understand it. A woman wants to have equal rights but not treated equally. If I'm carrying something heavy, it makes me happy if a man offers me to help, for me it's heavier than for him. If we walk I want the man to adjust the speed to mine and not leave me behind (and yes that actually did happen so now and then, with the argument that their legs were larger and thus it was difficult for them to walk at my speed and that I just had to adapt to them - losers!).

As for the crying part, I would try to comfort a guy aswell. But it might be a no no for a relationship if he does that to often.

Well you have your own double standards.... you're ok with women crying but have a problem with a bloke that cries too often.

It is a similar problem with modern feminism...... equality only when it suits women.

It doesn't have to do with equality.. I do not have a problem with a bloke who cries to often, I'm just not attracted to him. We still could be good friends but chances for a real relationship will be lower. The same that I'm totally not attracted to woman. Aaaw to this logic i'm discriminating woman by treating them unequally with their relationship chances with me. So please make of attraction and relationship chances and equality between the sexes two different subjects.

I do not believe in equality. People are NOT equal. They do however have equal rights. Further you have to adapt to the person needs. Which means for example if you see someone carrying something heavy and that person clearly has difficulty with it you offer help. It does not matter if that is a old male or a small female.

waffllemaster

Mar 26, 2012

0

#173

ciljettu wrote:

Actually, wafflemaster, the gender pay gap myth has been debunked plenty of times but if you think it is necessary to mock men to cure some perceived past grievances then go ahead.

Well, see, that's what I'm talking about... you read into things too much / take things too far. But again I agree with you in principal.

Elubas

Mar 26, 2012

0

#174

Wafflemaster: I totally get your point. To be honest, I think the whole "bumbling idiot man" thing, although obviously having nothing to do with the negative female stereotypes, it also creates negative stereotypes for men.

But ok, it's comedy, and trust me, I laugh at plenty of dumb men on TV. It's alright. But that's because when I laugh at it, I think "that person is so dumb!", instead of "this shows how dumb men are!" I still don't like the nature of creating new stereotypes to replace the old ones.

Monoceros

Mar 26, 2012

0

#175

Elubas wrote:

"A woman wants to have equal rights but not be treated equally"

! Wow! A statement that you don't often see. But I guess, deep down, a lot of us had that feeling.

No, I get you, with that whole carrying example. It's just that, what seems to be the societal implication sometimes, is not "It's easier for you to carry than me," but instead more like "You should serve your woman because you are lucky that she is even interested in a loser like you."

Don't you ever think that sort of message is being sent? I don't have a specific example at the moment, but at least in my country that atmosphere can't be ignored.

A very logical statement. With job chances I want to have equal rights. Which means that my gender should not matter, only my qualities do. But I do not want to be treated as a man, as I simply am not.

You really seem a guy to me with to many broken and not working relationships. Really try to find a girl who loves you. She will not use you, but simply wants to be with you. However do help her with carrying for example heavy things or with fixing things in the house. If the relationship is healthy you will do things for each other and she will try to be there for you too.

batgirl

Mar 26, 2012

0

#176

trysts wrote:

I had to think about this a bit, so sorry for the delay. I think I agree with you.

I hope you're not an anomaly!

Elubas

Mar 26, 2012

0

#177

"Further you have to adopt to the person needs."

It's a good philosophy in itself, but keep in mind it can be taken too far -- with this logic applied to women's titles: "If women are struggling in chess as a whole let's give them more praise than the guys." I think this kind of mentality discourages hard work and accomplishment. If you force women to do the same in chess as men then they will learn to take on challenges without asking for help.

Elubas

Mar 26, 2012

0

#178

"You really seem a guy to me with to many broken and not working relationships."

lol, you really think you can tell something about me based on what I write about an unrelated topic? Please, there is no place here for that last paragraph.

Monoceros

Mar 26, 2012

0

#179

waffllemaster wrote:

Monoceros wrote:

Elubas wrote:

I'm sure many people, when I bring up male discrimination, think I am just trying to be difficult, nitpicking the tiniest problems. But to me, it's not subtle. Guys, how often have you seen, whether in life or on TV, a guy comforting a girl when she cries, but does the polar opposite when a guy does it?

The whole concept of "be a gentleman" is something I have a problem with. The point is, you can treat a woman equally, repsect all of their rights, yet be called "not a gentleman" because you were supposed to treat them better than you would treat a male, not just equally. Sometimes, I think our society is conditioned, and, if unintentionally, taught, to be nicer, more lenient to girls than to boys.

You simply don't understand it. A woman wants to have equal rights but not treated equally. If I'm carrying something heavy, it makes me happy if a man offers me to help, for me it's heavier than for him. If we walk I want the man to adjust the speed to mine and not leave me behind (and yes that actually did happen so now and then, with the argument that their legs were larger and thus it was difficult for them to walk at my speed and that I just had to adapt to them - losers!).

As for the crying part, I would try to comfort a guy aswell. But it might be a no no for a relationship if he does that to often.

When it comes to 1 on 1 relationships society can shove it lol. The important thing is to communicate the things that are important to you, and if you find someone who respects that you can have a good relationship. Don't play society games... the man should carry this or that. If he thinks it's important to you, he should offer, and if he doesn't offer and it was important to you, then you should talk about it and he should understand :p

I agree with most of this post :).

Also to clarrify I don't think that the man has to carry everything. If there are three things, I'm happy to carry one, it would be insane to let him carry all three things. I just think that the man when he is stronger should offer help when heavy things are carried. Like I said earlier the same for old people and children. Do you offer help as an adult when you see a child of 8 carry something heavy and he/she cleary has difficulty with it? What if the person is 90? I certainly hope so, why is it then for some man suddenly a problem when the person is a woman?

waffllemaster

Mar 26, 2012

0

#180

ciljettu wrote:

waffllemaster wrote:

ciljettu wrote:

Actually, wafflemaster, the gender pay gap myth has been debunked plenty of times but if you think it is necessary to mock men to cure some perceived past grievances then go ahead.

Well, see, that's what I'm talking about... you read into things too much / take things too far. But again I agree with you in principal.

It is your double standard that I find a bit irritating. If I point out an anti-female stereotype that is a serious horrible thing.

If I point out an anti-male stereotype I am being oversensitive/taking things too far or "misogynist".

Well, I didn't call any stereotype this or that other than to agree they're both wrong.

What I find a bit irritating is it seems you go over the top to make your point.

Yes, discrimination against a man or women is wrong. The fact that injustice towards women in the past and in present day does exist does not in any way take away from your argument that it is also wrong to treat men this way.