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Cambridge Springs 1904 chess set

  • #101
    cgrau wrote:
    Mike, I like the black queen. It has fewer points in its coronet, which gives it a less complex look more in keeping with the simplicity of the rest of the set. Are those not BCC knight heads? Now that I have retired, I may take the reproduction of this set on. Do you have the base and height dimensions?

     

    Chuck,  Both Mike Vuolo and I have talked about getting some decent measurements of these pieces and I believe he has had discussions on getting something underway for this.  I just purchased an electronic caliper, so I can get accurate measurements.  Let's do this!

  • #102

    Not a valid comparison, but in historical sets like North vs. South (civil war) or Romans vs.Visigoths, etc. all the pieces are different. Might be interesting to design a Staunton style set in the same manner. For consistency, all the opposing pieces would be the same size (height and width), but with slight (not radical) changes in design, keeping the major design elements, like the bases and collars, unchanged.

  • #103

    Here are my rough measurements for these chessmen shown in images for posts #17 and #97.

    White King size: 99.94mm base diameter: 38.34mm collar diameter: 24.50mm   has slight warp

    Black King size: 99.79mm base diameter: 39.42mm collar diameter: 25.48mm  has slight warp

     

    White Queen size: 87.64mm base diameter: 38.50mm collar diameter: 24.55mm

    Black Queen size: 88.00mm base diameter: 38.75mm  collar diameter: 24.40mm

      

    White Rooks size: 55.15mm base diameter: 38:20mm turret depth and inside|outside diameters: 4.78mm and 21.36mm 28.80mm  collar diameter: 26.47mm

    size: 56.06mm base diameter: 38.31mm turret depth and inside|outside diameters: 5.35mm and 20.82mm 28.90mm  collar diameter: 26.31mm

     

    Black Rooks size: 56.25mm base diameter: 38.25mm turret depth and inside|outside diameters: 4.85mm and 21.16mm 28.90mm  collar diameter: 26.15mm

    size: 55.90mm base diameter: 38.96mm turret depth and inside|outside diameters: 4.90mm and 20.90mm 29.00mm  collar diameter: 26.50mm

     

    White Bishops size: 75.12mm base diameter: 38.32mm   collar diameter: 24.90mm

    size: 74.85mm base diameter: 38.05mm  collar diameter: 24.75mm

     

    Black Bishops size: 74.40mm base diameter: 38.25mm  collar diameter: 25.60mm

    size: 74.95mm base diameter: 38.15mm  collar diameter: 24.55mm

     

    White Knights size: 70.88mm base diameter: 38.24m base size: 27.22mm

    base top diameter: 28.62mm

    size: 70.75mm base diameter: 38.36mm base size: 27.78mm

    base top diameter: 29.82mm

     

    Black Knights size: 71.25mm base diameter: 38.60mm base size: 26.70mm

    base top diameter: 30.00mm

    size: 70.40mm base diameter: 38.60mm base size: 27.10mm

    base top diameter: 29.30mm

     

    White Pawns size: base diameter: ball diameter: collar diameter:

    48.00mm 29.38mm 15.08mm  18.92mm

    48.81mm 29.75mm 15.28mm  19.54mm

    48.35mm 29.32mm 14.94mm  18.84mm

    48.44mm 29.60mm 14.79mm  19.24mm

    48.94mm 29.70mm 15.52mm  19.58mm

    48.40mm 29.50mm 14.82mm  19.16mm

    48.34mm 29.36mm 14.84mm  19.10mm

    48.85mm 29.78mm 15.05mm  19.06mm

     

    Black Pawns size: base diameter: ball diameter: collar diameter:

    48.60mm 29.90mm 15.08mm  19.08mm

    48.60mm 29.60mm 14.32mm  18.70mm

    47.92mm 29.00mm 14.65mm  18.40mm

    48.41mm 29.62mm 14.96mm  18.85mm

    48.50mm 29.05mm 14.70mm  18.38mm

    47.88mm 30.22mm 14.60mm  18.96mm

    47.74mm 29.84mm 15.26mm  18.86mm

    48.79mm 29.38mm 14.82mm  18.54mm

    Edge on base of each piece and pawns is about 6mm, but varies of course.

    Note that none of these chessmen has feet and should be kid leather covered, not baize.

     

    Weights were taken earlier and may not be as accurate, but I can redo.  Here are those for reference.

     

    WP 21,21,21,22,22,22,22,23 174g average 21.75g

    WB 46,46 92g

    WN 49,50 99g average 49.5g

    WR 48,51 99g average 49.5g

    WQ 49g

    WK 51g

     

    Total White side 564g

     

    BP 22,22,23,23,23,23,24,24 184g average 23g

    BB 44,46 90g

    BN 49,50 99g average 49.5g

    BR 50,51 101g average 50.5g

    BQ 50g

    BK 54g

     

    Total Black side 578g

     

  • #104
    loubalch wrote:

     Mike, I prefer the white queen. The additional crenels (and merlons) give it a more realistic look. I think it compliments the design of the rook.

     

    WQ has 11 points while the BQ has 10

    Mick Deasey's Cambridge Springs chessmen shown in post #17 has WQ with 8 points.

    Knights heads appear to more closely match those used during the 1904 tournament itself.

  • #105

    Now if we only knew somebody with a multi-axis CNC lathe.

  • #106

    Wow THANK YOU Allah for the measurements.  Does anyone have an idea of you manufactured this type set for the Tournament as well as made others for sale?  This Tournament just keeps on fascinating me. When you think of all the players from Europe and such and the time it took to travel back then and the cost, it is amazing that the town of Cambridge Springs, PA  was picked. 

    If the set does get made it has to come with the picture of all the players and names.  Would add some class to it. 

    We have had so many Staunton sets and I love them all and so many Russian sets which I also like but this one is unique especially for being made in the USA which I am just guessing. 

    This Tournament had the World/Russian/Austrian/French/CHAMPIONS snd was won by the young Frank Marshall.  (just a fact stolen from the site   http://cs1904.com/

    I can't help it I love chess history and have a passion for it. I wish I had the discipline to study and become more than a wood pusher!!

    This got me excited Alan seeing all the measurements. Maybe in another 12 months this will be a reality.

     

  • #107
    wiscmike wrote:

    Wow ...

    This got me excited Alan seeing all the measurements. Maybe in another 12 months this will be a reality.

     

    Hoping we can get the images together and see where this goes.  Thanks Mike.

  • #108

    Some related historical images showing examples of these chessmen.

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    Frank J Marshall - credit Chicago Daily News

     

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    Charles H Waterbury vs Napoleon Marache 1860 - Cleveland Public Library collection.

     

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    Emmanuel Lasker vs J.S. Ryan 1893 - image courtesy Cleveland Public Library collection.

     

    nullDavid Janowski at Cambridge Springs 1904 - WP Shipley image courtesy CPL collection.

     

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    Jacques Mieses at Cambridge Springs 1904 - image Edward Winter CN7313 and others.

    http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/winter87.html#7313._JakobJacques_Mieses

     

    null

     

    Isaac L Rice at Villa Julia - image from ACB and others.

     

  • #109

     Do we know what company made the chess sets.  Did the old Chess Bulletin by herman Helms sell these sets on there first couple of pages?  If the set looks similar it is probably the right company.

  • #110

    Wonderful photos.

  • #111
    wiscmike wrote:

     Do we know what company made the chess sets.  Did the old Chess Bulletin by herman Helms sell these sets on there first couple of pages?  If the set looks similar it is probably the right company.

     

    It is highly likely that the chessmen used in the tournament were provided by the American Chess Company 150 Nassau Street, NY, which was the sales arm of the ACB, but whether they were simply a distributor or manufactured them is unknown.  We do know the organizers of the tournament included Hermann Helms and Hartwig Cassel.  Isaac Rice was a major financial backer.  Helms provided almost daily coverage during the tournament for subscribers which became the basis for the initial publication of the American Chess Bulletin Vol.1 No.1 Jun1904 magazine.  For whatever reason, the uppers on the Knights were swapped for tournament play.

  • #112

    I like the knights in your set much better and not the ones that were swapped. Since I feel the major pieces of accuracy are the King, Queen, Rook those are the set makers. Because they did look like they substituted for some reason, and probably in a hurry some knight top that looks horrid.  My guess is for someone who wants the ugly knights maybe there can be four (4) knightsa side in the set. Since they are not elaborate it shouldn't bring he cost up that much.  It would not be the first set to have four (4) knights offered ina  set for each side.

  • #113
    wiscmike wrote:

    I like the knights in your set much better and not the ones that were swapped. Since I feel the major pieces of accuracy are the King, Queen, Rook those are the set makers. Because they did look like they substituted for some reason, and probably in a hurry some knight top that looks horrid.  My guess is for someone who wants the ugly knights maybe there can be four (4) knightsa side in the set. Since they are not elaborate it shouldn't bring he cost up that much.  It would not be the first set to have four (4) knights offered ina  set for each side.

     

    If that’s possible it would allow for those purists to choose which uppers to use.  I have no idea how much it would impact cost or difficulty in carving.

  • #114

    I saw them on ebay. Very reasonable price and free shipment.

  • #115

    Maybe make 1/2 the sets with one knight and the other 1/2 he other knight?  You will always have the ourist no matter how bad a piece looks. We know that the same company made both and it looked like they had a last minute problem with the knights. No doubt if they could have spent the time carving they would have supplied the knights in your picture. If we could only go back and ask Mt Hems 103 years ago.

  • #116

    Secrets to be discovered.  It would be interesting to know why they replaced the uppers among other things.  That's why I find this particular tournament and the mystery so fascinating.

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