Morals and Ethics In Chess The Chess Equipment Business

So, what it appears to boil down to is that currently there are more options for Chess sets than ever.  And the consumer needs to be paying attention to details more than ever if he wants the best product at the best price.  And there is no one company, except for Noj and Frank Camaratta himself, that will be 100% predictable.  For if you go to either the Noj site or Frank’s site you can be assured that what you see is what you get, the best quality available.  And yes, you can also expect not the lowest price from either as well.  But with both of them you get what you pay for.

My thoughts exactly. I assume there are people with different views that really spend more than $ 500 on new sets. Which makes it possible for sellers to keep these prices so high. I can't see any reasonable justification for asking more than 400 usd for a newly made chess set. Staunton design I mean. Maybe those fantasy designs with elaborate horse sculptures would mean some more handicraft/time is involved. But usually those sets are not the most expensive. So the "you get what you pay for" is imho not always the case.

I can elaborate on the Fischer-Spassky sets because I actually bought two of them. They had many variations like you said:

1. the Reykjavik II

2. Fischer-Spassky Commemorative (FSC) in ebonized boxwood on clearance

3. The new and improved Fischer-Spassky (TNIF)

4. The Pawn Sacrifice (PS)

5. the Fischer-Spassky Commemorative (FSC) in ebony or BR

6. I think I more beyond that... maybe the Reykjavik I.

The Reykjavik was the least accurate in my opinion. The TNIF version was nice in my opinion but also was not as accurate as the FSC and PS versions. The FSC ebonized version was originally $299 but was on clearance for $150. The FSC ebony was $595 and the blood rosewood version was $649. I don't remember what wood the PS version came in but it came with a box and king-side stamping for $399. 

I bought the FSC in ebonized for $150 but there were 9 pieces that had dings, cracks, burnt marks and smudges. HoS did not have the replacement pieces so they let me return it despite being on clearance. I was going to buy the PS version but they were out of stock. I eventually forked out $595 for the FSC Commemorative set in Ebony. 

As far as differences between the FSC in ebonized boxwood versus FSC in ebony, there is no difference other than the wood. At the time, if they had the ebonized set in good condition for $299 then I would have preferred ebonized boxwood version. The PS version would have been acceptable as well at $399. I bought the FSC in ebony which I am very happy with but I cannot say it was worth $300 more just for ebony.

@martyn-n I actually agree with you a lot.  The most I ever paid for a Staunton style set was $540 back in 2004 which had a huge discount.  Other than that, I bought only 3 other sets from HoS for just over $300 but definitely under $400.  And they are all just as nice or nicer than the one I bought that listed at about $850.  I see no reason to ever buy a set over $400, now.  I own a few sets that cost over $200 but most of the sets I own average in the $125 - $150 range.  And understand I own very nice sets.  Of course Noj sets are in a universe on their own in both quality and price.

@MCH818 I know for a fact that the PS set from HoS is the exact same as the one they had on clearance for a long time at $150.  I own that clearance set in both Ebonized and Golden Rosewood.  I directed one guy in our area bought the PS set with the only difference being embossed leather pads on the King bases.  I spoke with HoS and they told me it was the same set as well, what a rip off.  
Carl of OS also carried this same set but with the crown stamps on one Knight of each color. 

That clearance set was the best kept secret of a very nice set at that low $150 price.  And when the inventory of that clearance set was gone they ordered more and kept those new sets on clearance, tricky.

I directed at least 4 people to buy that set, over the years.  Yeah, that was a winner set to get.

I don’t know what’s up with these more expensive sets of theirs except maybe they have new manufacturers or something.

You see, the HoS current owner has not been extremely happy with me as I am brutally honest.

No doubt all these chess businesses have some marketing expert telling them what to price how much. What goes on clearance sale, so that you think you buy something for half the value it is supposed to be worth.

Why exactly should a nice Jaques-Anderssen-ish set be more or less worth than a nice Jaques-Morphy-ish set? I assume that's pretty arbitrary, or clever marketing. My rule of thumb is just what I feel is enough to spend on some set (and an unfortunate factor I cannot forget: how much I want it... Sellers love that trait in buyers.) With HoS I get most of the time at something reasonable, but never cheap, when buying on sale and after some haggling.

Talking about ethics btw I think some sites go way overboard with excessive pricing with boxes and boards too.

@Eyechess The one on clearance was definitely a good one if it was in good condition. The one I received was not. I was disappointed when HoS said they don't have replacement pieces. The price to value ratio was awesome. I think I had a 20% coupon when I ordered the FSC in ebony. It was still very expensive around $476. I love the set. I would still order it again if it was under the same circumstances but if someone were looking for value, the FSC in ebony even with the coupon wouldn't the right set for that purpose.

Here's another counter example. Today, the only company selling a knockoff of Official FIDE World Championship chess set is Official Staunton:

https://www.officialstaunton.com/collections/luxury-chess-pieces/products/world-championship-chess-pieces

Does OS have license from Pentagram, the designer of the set? I think not. Then why is buying from OS ethical while buying from Indian companies unethical? Is it because Carl used to post here? 

Don't get me wrong. I like OS and have two sets from them. Just never thought about ethics issue until I read this thread. 

Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't aware of that. But wasn't CB just following a customer's order? They even have a dedicated page to process custom orders, called "Design Your Own Chess Set":

https://www.chessbazaar.com/custom-design

Lots of DIY T-shirt websites have similar feature and they're far more advanced than CB's.

Yes, but at the time the only set or pieces they could copy was the Noj version.  The tournament pictures using the set definitely were not good for copying the design.  Cgrau and his friend hired a guy to make the technical drawings and then Gregor made a high number of prototype pieces before they could produce the set.  This took not only a lot of work but a lot of time.  And CB came out with their version very fast.  The only way they could do this was to copy cgrau’s and Gregor’s work.  At the time there were a number of people complaining about this.

That's probably true but anyone manufacturing a Staunton set must be aware that it is likely to be copied. The Chavet set has three copies available today and I fully expect CB to amend their Chavet to version 3.0 at some point to bring it up to the standard achieved by ChessEmpire. Since I am such a fan of this set I loaned CE some spare pieces to guide them when they mentioned here (or on FB) that they were thinking of making a reproduction. I had previously made the same offer to another party when they said they were thinking of making the set, although they decided to hold off on it.

The point is that I fully expect other manufacturers to follow suit with their versions and I don't think anyone could complain. My motive was to make a great set which has been lost to time available again, not to make profits or even obtain a copy myself since I have 3 originals.

NOJ and cgrau did a great job with the Tal set and it's still a great set but I don't think any reasonable person would expect exclusivity in such circumstances.

I agree.  I was just telling you of the scene and situation back then.

I have since bought at least 2 sets from CB.  And I just bought that Chavet you inspired CE to make.  Thank you very much for that.

I don’t hold any grudges and would buy from any of these companies.

But the thing is, I do not like the looks of any of those Tal 1960 sets.  And I don’t plan on buying any of them.

I have seen all of these Chess set sellers, whether direct or retailer, do some things I do not approve, except for Gregor and Frank Camaratta.  But if I would only deal with saints I would have to be in heaven.  And I am not quite ready for that.

Greetings All- 

did someone say - ethics? back in the day circa 2001, there may have existed such a thing as ethics when dealing with the likes of those so-called manufacturers and now retailers of handicrafts.  I'll check back in a while and post some letters of authenticity and certificates we still have in the files. Oh and as for the fide world chess " knock off" - we've repeatedly requested proof of this patent from those concerned however to date there is no response which leads me to believe a patent does not exist for this particular " redesign" of a Staunton set which is in the public domain. Therefore we offer it and why not? every so-called manufacturer over in India has screwed us, western buyers, for over 15 years. sorry guys but right now it has become a dog eat dog business with everyone claiming exclusivity etc, its all nonsense. No one holds any patents on Staunton chess pieces, we tried to when we were naive to believe such a thing was possible, but it just isn't. 

Ethics in the chess business no longer exists, there was such a thing as gentlemen agreements, they don't exist either. We held many such patents and agreements but the same manufacturers who signed those off to us sent out their sidekicks under different names and offered those very designs to other retailers. One such manufacturer charged us a premium for exclusivity deals, but he was also selling the same sets to others, when we found out we ditched them and had those designs made elsewhere, they had the Gaul to be pissed about that. NO  ONE is a saint in business, it's just the way it is I'm afraid. 

Those Indian sellers, by the way, all make very decent chess sets, I guess we cannot compete on some lines, but that's okay too- what they have done is drastically lower the pricing, so now all those at war with each other over in India, Canada, etc are desperately selling wholesale pricing at a retail cost - which cannot withhold in any business model. 

UPDATE - WORLD CHESS ...

Advise of a design registration therefore now they have finally replied we will, of course, remove those sets and as someone suggested simply become an official reseller - I must add I doubt this design would hold up if challenged as it is a redesign of staunton chess pieces only. 

@OfficialStaunton That sounds rough! It sounds like you and the rest of the industry once tried to do things the "gentlemen" and ethical way but some thought it would be better to go the other direction to make more money. I believe the consumers have benefited from this price-wise, but I am not sure this is a good thing for the industry. I don't know how businesses will survive when it is this cutthroat. Eventually pricing has to come back up for the industry to survive. I guess you guys are playing musical chairs. I guess we'll find out who's left when the music stops. 

Btw I love your recent Cooke 3.5 set. I wish you would reproduce the Leuchars ivory set in wood and also create a 3.75" version of your 1849 4.4 set.

@MCH818: I emailed Carl about whether he would do a tournament size 1851 at some point I  think, way back when. Think he said he would if there were enough interest in one. I guess there wasn't. One of the things I don't like about the 3,5 inch king set out now, in its various iterations, is how slim the pieces look. Fragile like. I love my dubrovnik 2's because they will stand up to play quite nicely. A properly done, nice looking 1851 in 3,75 inch king would look fantastic and I don't see what is so difficult about that design to get right. The two options that are out now are not even close in terms of approximating the look of the original set, despite that they might be nice sets in their own right. Oh well!

our 3.5 jaques is a beauty, taken from an original kindly from a UK collector - be well 

Carl, you have been in the business for quite a long time.

The thing I note about your business style is that you have been and currently are a gentleman.

Frank Camaratta has been a competitor of yours also.  I remember the two of you not agreeing on some things, but you have always been the gentleman.

Let’s face it.  There are a limited number of Chess sets designs and variations.  I know that I am pretty complete in what I own.  And about 8 - 10 sets that I own are duplicates of others.

Of my top sets that I like best, 3 of them are from you; Leuchars, Piatigorsky, and Morphy (yeah I own 2 of these in Ebonized and Sheesham).  Frank’s sets in my favorites number 2; Craftsman and Luxury Cooke.  And Noj is the producer of 3, like you; Dubrovnik II, GM Pavasovic, and Dubrovnik Minceta.

Carl, to me you are one of the main guys in this business.  Your service has been impeccable, like Gregor of Noj.  Your set quality has been the equivalent of Frank Camaratta’s.  And your prices are very competitive. 

Yes I guess there wasn't enough interest. Hopefully Carl will see there is. As for the current Cooke sets being more fragile, you could be right in this but I like the Cooke sets with flattened bases and thin stems. It looks so elegant. As for the two 1849 sets, as you know I own one of them. The CB set is out of proportion as we discussed in another thread but the knights in that set are beautiful from the side. I smile every time I look at them. The rooks on the other hand are an eye soar to me. I can live with the bishop and queen as-is. Overall it is a very good set despite the out of proportion problem.

Yeah, so what?

No, I certainly am not doing that.  Take that back.

Did you really miss the number of times I have said Chess Empire, Staunton Castle and Chess Bazzaar sell really nice stuff?

I have decried the lower build quality of one, single direct from India seller.  Get over it.

Ahem, calm down my German friend.

I have only spoken negatively about some of the products offered by one, uno, eins, you know a singular business.  And I have never said anything negative about the businesses themselves.

Now, there are some individuals on this forum..,