From where comes the idea that a 3D scan will help in making Repros?
The Fischer Set
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May 31, 2015
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#23
rcmacmillan wrote:
Chuck, I see the difference that you are pointing out. I just don't think that horse should be let out of the barn. Sooner or later, someone would attempt to commercialize the digitalization, and someone would be convinced that it was a good thing to do. Photos and museums are enough for me.
I hear you. You're talking to a guy who likes paper books and analog clocks. But I have to admit, like it or not, we live in the Matrix. I wish there was a digital model of this set, pictured below, and it's one I actually wouldn't mind seeing it commercially reproduced. But I and others have searched the world high and low for it in museums or private hands, and have come up dry. The surviving pictures are sufficiently ambiguous to dissuade any commercial entity from trying to reproduce it. It may well be another passenger pigeon.
rcmacmillan wrote:
htdavidht wrote:
From where comes the idea that a 3D scan will help in making Repros?
David, a 3-D scan can easily be imported into CAD-CAM manufacturing software, used to run automated wood lathes and laser cutting machines.
This machines are not capable of reproducing this chess set on the ways you descrive.
Going to elaborate mor into this. Here a comment from Alan and his atemp to do this exact 3D deal with a 1849 set:
" I have looked into getting the knights heads scanned and machine carved but it looks like the technology is not up to it yet."
Post number 343
Don't expect any better results with a Dubrovnik. There is so much a machine can do. Still human skills are superior for some things. a 3D scan will help preserve this some, for the future but don't hold hopes it will help us getting a repro.
A 3D scan can help getting a plastic repro, but not a wood repro. More like the Lewis set was scaned and higth quality plastic used for the making of a repro.
rcmacmillan wrote:
htdavidht wrote:
This machines are not capable of reproducing this chess set on the ways you descrive.
David, you are absolutely wrong. The capability is there and used all the time. Here's one example. https://youtu.be/GaOkVTR2Mko
and here's another carving a round object not on a lathe. You're telling me a machine of this type can't carve a chess knight?! https://youtu.be/OX_Pw8XPYMs
Both of those machines are uncapable of carving a Dubrovnik horse. The one that rotates make simple shapes, the one that doesn't rotates make flat stuff.
Nothing have revolucinace the industry on the past 7 months.
Lest do something, contact this factories and ask them what you want to do.
Just ask them if they can do it. Show them the youtube videos when they tell you their machines can't do what want.
While you are at it, think for a moment why it have not being done by now? why all the people selling chess sets keep resoursing in humans for carvings thir sets.
rcmacmillan wrote:
DAvid, you are too naive for words. It is possible now, and gets more likely every day. If you can program a 3-D printer to "print" an accurate 3-D replica, you can program a CNC machine to do the same thing. Q.E.D.
You can't printing and carving are 2 differ3nt processes. I know a thing or 2 about manufacturing.
To carve a sset the way you want to, you have to have the wood fixed in a drill that controls rotation whith less than a milimiter of error, this drill does exist. then you need the drill in a dome kinda deal that can offer just about 180 degree angle, this thing doesn't exist, then you need to sync both of this things with a piece of softwar that doesn't exist. Then you can with 1 machine take over th whole India chess carving shops.
By the way, the owner of this drill that rotates with error of less than a milimiter I mention above is General Electric, they use it to manufacture intruments for the NASA. The crucial parts of the process still being done by humans.
Cheking pictures on NOJ website, seams like they invest the best on their shop. And they claim it take them days to archive the horses. They sure can benefit from your imaginary technology.
7 months is nothing. Changes you see today have being in lab designs for years. Nobody rebuilds a production line each month.
Besides this there is no much to say. Find a factory that have the settings you like on place, then place an order. I still thinking this machines you are talking about are not there, but if you find them then go ahead.
Sorry if I interrupted you, I didn't knew you was "doing it".... go on.
I thank you very much for presenting the video of your acquisition of the "Fischer" favorite chess set. I remember this set very well, yet I was never able to find one myself.
The set could not be in better hands, as you have taken very important steps in order to preserve this rare find.
Again I thank you for posting this thread, as I have always been an admirer of exquisite sets such as this one.
RC and David, check this out! Very impressive video of a CNC lathe making a knight out of 316 stainless!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu0EWKYzXpM
Impressive, yes. Though still a far cry from an 1849 Jaques or a 1950 Dubrovnik, in my opinion.
rcmacmillan wrote:
strngdrvnthng wrote:
Impressive, yes. Though still a far cry from an 1849 Jaques or a 1950 Dubrovnik, in my opinion.
True. There are other videos online that show steel knights being machined that are a little more detailed, but I don't think anyone has actually tried to duplicate one of those patterns yet. I still think it will be possible sooner rather than later.
But the technology is here today to make every other piece using a CNC lathe. And with advances in 3D printing and materials, the knight heads could be printed and attached to a CNC base, to create a hybrid knight.
Which isn't too far fetched. Back in the early 1890's the British Chess Company did just that, by fabricating knight heads out of then new plastic substance called xylonite. It actually made for a nice looking knight.
I hope you'll forgive me if I don't hold my breath. 😎
I can't really use this style of set(the style 'throws me off'). I can get used to it, but I prefer not to.
I need more definition in the queen's crown, but the bishops throw me off the most. The Knights and rook are fine, but I prefer the classic stauton stylings.
rcmacmillan wrote:
Andy, this is faulty logic. It's a long jump from allowing measurements and photographs of a set in order to duplicate a missing piece, or to chronicle the differences between sets of the same vintage, and allowing someone to completely image a set in order that it may be fully reproduced.
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough; I meant that he used the measurements he took for the purpose of reproducing sets. He sent measurements and images to CB to reproduce the 1849 Jaques set (they had the images on their site for a while), although in that case it was not very successful and he also talked about reproducing a BCC set.
The simple fact is that the design patents on old sets will have expired (if they were there to start with) and people are free to duplicate them to the best of their ability. I don't see any problem with the original sets being devalued and as far as forgeries go, caveat emptor, as always.
On the use of automated lathes, could you please clarify your position? You've said both that "the capability is there and used all the time" and that "it will be possible sooner rather than later". So, are you saying it can be done now or not?
Andy, this is faulty logic. It's a long jump from allowing measurements and photographs of a set in order to duplicate a missing piece, or to chronicle the differences between sets of the same vintage, and allowing someone to completely image a set in order that it may be fully reproduced. Alan is one of a small cadre or experts who collect, repair, and document these pieces.
My points still stand. It's not the honest that people have to worry about, it is the unethical and dishonest. While I may agree that it may be "cool" and "nice" to have a perfect reproduction of a rarity, I doubt the motives of almost anyone who wants to give away the means of duplication. If people want "perfect copies", search out and buy an original and have Alan restore it, or produce your own. Given the differences that exist in hand carving, any hand-done set will not be "exact," and any laser-cut or machine produced set will not be handmade.
Robert, you make good points, which I basically agree with. The reason I think that making digital models of historic sets isn't motivated by a desire to throw them open to everyone who wanted to copy them, as the originator of this thread suggested, but as a means of historic preservation of the ideas expressed in the design. The open-sourced commercialization of such models, with the attendant problems you've discussed, is quite another matter.