1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d5!?, the unfairly neglected Prodigio Variation of the Sicilian Defense

The_HighGround

The Caro doesn't give me a chance to achieve the high ground; instead I stay at the low ground in the Caro.

VechugaProdigio
The_HighGround wrote:

Alekhines, Nimzo witch, Pirc, Modern.

I do also play that whole lot but the Modern!!! I dislike fianchettos...

The_HighGround

Fianchettos are tricky, which gives me a high ground advantage

VechugaProdigio
The_HighGround wrote:

Fianchettos are tricky, which gives me a high ground advantage

I would NEVER, for instance, play a Dragon Sicilian, those dragons are out of my Sicilian Zoo, hahahaha!!!

MatthewFreitag

I don't see any point in capturing with the queen, as after Nc3 you just have a bad Scandinavian, as the pawn on c5 is a waste of a tempo that hurts more than it helps.

However, I find this line a little more interesting:

 

VechugaProdigio
MatthewFreitag wrote:

I don't see any point in capturing with the queen, as after Nc3 you just have a bad Scandinavian, as the pawn on c5 is a waste of a tempo that hurts more than it helps.

However, I find this line a little more interesting:

 

Very interesting!! You are right in that refraining to capture with the queen, as in Scandinavian variations I once studied (I lost that book, pitily, GM Emms, maybe?) gives life to more positional and subtle play, and there's a lot of ground there to make progress. I, myself, don't give much credit to initial developing advantages (up to a certain non-ridiculous point, of course!), because sometimes being a little behind in development gives you more flexibility to counter, but that's just my opinion, don't you think? Thanks a lot for your interesting insight!

VechugaProdigio
benonidoni wrote:

Qxd5 isn't even the best move in this pathetic opening?

In all fairness, you were the first to put the Qxd5 restrain in the discussion. Maybe "pathetic" is a little harsh to my taste, but your opinion is still very interesting at least to me and to the gentleman that gave valuable concrete analysis above! Thanks a lot!

followthebuzzard

I suppose it depends how you want to play, I like to try and take control of the narrative of any opening by playing systems I know.

3.exd5 is probably the best move but it is not the only move. 

I have used Bloodgood's Norfolk Gambit a few times with varied results 1.Nf3 d5 2.b3 c5 3.e4!? and the Vasconcellos Gambit 1.Nf3 d5 2.a4 c5 3.e4!? with much the same results

But such things are a matter of personal taste

And remember:

Follow the buzzards!

VechugaProdigio
followthebuzzard wrote:

I suppose it depends how you want to play, I like to try and take control of the narrative of any opening by playing systems I know.

3.exd5 is probably the best move but it is not the only move. 

I have used Bloodgood's Norfolk Gambit a few times with varied results 1.Nf3 d5 2.b3 c5 3.e4!? and the Vasconcellos Gambit 1.Nf3 d5 2.a4 c5 3.e4!? with much the same results

But such things are a matter of personal taste

And remember:

Follow the buzzards!

Thanks a lot for your answer and for showing us those rare opening systems! My personal taste goes sometimes to playing susrprise opening lines, like the Mokele Mbembe Alekhine, and myriads of other rare things... I´ve been analysing with adequate depth the aspect of the 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d5 3.exd5 (the only chance for white to refute the whole black effort, as 3.Bb5+/Nc3 are dead draws...) 3...Nf6 line, and came to the conclusion that it fails to offer adequate counterplay for black, but holds the black formation together (4.Bb5+ Nbd7 5.c4 a6 6.Bxd7+ Bxd7 7.d4 e6 8.dxe6 fxe6 9.Nc3 cxd4 10.Qxd4 Bc6 11.Qe3 Qd6 12.Bd2 Rc8 13.O-O-O Bxf3 14. Qxf3 Rxc4 15. Qxb7 Rc7 16.Qa8+ Kf7 17.Kb1 Qc6 18.Qxc6 Rxc6, to my taste black always stays behind in ideas and can´t even manage to arrange a counterattack... but renders this opening playable at short time controls and against weaker opposition can backfire white...). I still didn´t analyse in more extension the 3...Qxd5 line, which I think could, in the end, show some more resilience taking the pawn for the lack of development...). I still found nothing conclusive in these lines, and found a lot of plausible alternatives that could stirr the game to unexplored channels that the "main line" didn´t manage to.

followthebuzzard
VechugaProdigio wrote:

 I´ve been analysing with adequate depth the aspect of the 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d5 3.exd5 (the only chance for white to refute the whole black effort, as 3.Bb5+/Nc3 are dead draws...) 3...Nf6 line, 

The only chance? I sincerely doubt it but if you want to limit the scope of your investigation that is up yo you

Follow the buzzards! 

VechugaProdigio
followthebuzzard wrote:
VechugaProdigio wrote:

 I´ve been analysing with adequate depth the aspect of the 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d5 3.exd5 (the only chance for white to refute the whole black effort, as 3.Bb5+/Nc3 are dead draws...) 3...Nf6 line, 

The only chance? I sincerely doubt it but if you want to limit the scope of your investigation that is up yo you

Follow the buzzards! 

Well, my preliminary investigations showed that white´s pressure dissolves in 3.Bb5+ continuations, and black gets almost equality from 3.Nc3 onwards, so I thought that concentrating in the main response gave the whole subject a more serious approach. I still think black struggles to get out unscathed with 3.exd5, but think, as always, that this opening hasn´t received any critical blow from theory yet. It remains flexible enough to try as surprise weapon in our games, and white struggles sometimes in finding the attacking pressure it deserves from the opening´s general wisdom distrust, sometimes poorly founded in analytical terms. In general, I saw very few attacking prospects for black, but arrived to nothing close to a refutation, if you understand my use of the term here... Thanks again for showing your point of view!

Chessflyfisher
MagnetsCarleson wrote:

According to my Chessbase 14 Databse, White has a 68.7% win rate against this with exd5.

I think this is just a worse Scandinavian.

Enough said!

VechugaProdigio
Chessflyfisher wrote:
MagnetsCarleson wrote:

According to my Chessbase 14 Databse, White has a 68.7% win rate against this with exd5.

I think this is just a worse Scandinavian.

Enough said!

Might have something to do with the scarce sample of games involved... Just my humble opinion!wink.png