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Anything better for black?

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Maradonna
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jarkov

a6 and d6 are alternatives, but Qc7 is fine.. just need a better followup

jarkov
jarkov wrote:

a6 and d6 are alternatives, but Qc7 is fine.. just need a better followup


swore Ive seen an improvement to that but right now Im coming up blank

chry3841

 think it's playable but personally I prefer to play a6 first then Nc6 and then Qc7 avoiding from the start that annoying Nb5

peterke91

i dont Qxc7 it's necesarly, it would be better Ke7 Na8 Qa8 Ba5 Qa5
and it is intresting that Kf8 is almost checkmate because Bc5

jarkov
peterke91 wrote:

i dont Qxc7 it's necesarly, it would be better Ke7 Na8 Qa8 Ba5 Qa5
and it is intresting that Kf8 is almost checkmate because Bc5


if Ke7 I think Bc5+ with Qd6 might work

Maradonna
AnthonyCG wrote:

Actually, White isn't winning. Black has 3 pieces for the queen.


 Material is White 29 and Black 28. Black has an isolated pawn on B7 that is a weakness that could be attacked. I guess saying 'winning' is a too strong, but I do think that there is an advantage for white. I might be wrong.

If I had to choose to play a colour I'd choose white. What colour would others choose?

Maradonna
jarkov wrote:
jarkov wrote:

a6 and d6 are alternatives, but Qc7 is fine.. just need a better followup


swore Ive seen an improvement to that but right now Im coming up blank


Thanks for reading and posting. If you remember the improvement I'd like to see it.

Maradonna
chry3841 wrote:

 think it's playable but personally I prefer to play a6 first then Nc6 and then Qc7 avoiding from the start that annoying Nb5


 Yeah, looks like 5...a6 is probably the way to go. 5..Qc7 does not seem to bring anything but trouble.

chry3841

I'd prefer white too becouse is easier to play, black must be very careful and accurate

chry3841
Maradonna wrote:
chry3841 wrote:

 think it's playable but personally I prefer to play a6 first then Nc6 and then Qc7 avoiding from the start that annoying Nb5


 Yeah, looks like 5...a6 is probably the way to go. 5..Qc7 does not seem to bring anything but trouble.


 I prefer to play a6 even before Nc6 to avoid 5. Nb5 and 6.Nd6+

Shiraaaaazi

Black is actually winning. Everybody knows that three pieces for a queen is preferable. (Three fighters against one bomber.) Here is another example in the kings indian.

Maradonna
traxlerman wrote:

Black is actually winning. Everybody knows that three pieces for a queen is preferable. (Three fighters against one bomber.) Here is another example in the kings indian.


 It seems that there is a divide between those that prefer black and those that prefer white. Perhaps it's a question of the individual's style.

Shakaali

I believe it's bit strong statement to say that white/black is winning. Instead we have an unbalanced position where material is approximately even. Personaly I would probably rather have black. There are some games between pretty strong players played in this variation. Here is one black victory.

5... Qc7 is very well known theoretical move that has been employed by many top players. I think the fact that current world champion Anand has used this move many times should be enough to convince us of its soundness.

Maradonna

Shakaali, great post. It is interesting to see a variation of the game played through to completion. From the database that you looked at, was the continuation from 5..Qc7 through to move 12..Bc7 that I originally gave seen as the main continuation. In other words, is the point of Qc7 to try and get to the unbalanced position that is reached on move 12?

Shakaali
Maradonna wrote:

From the database that you looked at, was the continuation from 5..Qc7 through to move 12..Bc7 that I originally gave seen as the main continuation. In other words, is the point of Qc7 to try and get to the unbalanced position that is reached on move 12?


Nowadays white's two clearly most popular moves after 5... Qc7 are 6. Be3 and 6 Be2. But in those games that 6. Nb5 was played the line you gave appears to be the main continuation altough black has some serious alternatives in 7... Nf6 and 10... Ra5 (and white has 8. Nd4).

By the way, 5... a6 is of course also a well known move with largely the same ideas, but there are some subtle differences. For example, 6. Nxc6!? is much more serious alternative after the latter as a6 can turn out to be a wasted move in the arising structure.

Maradonna

Thanks, Shakaali. Yours posts have really helped.

BillyIdle

A better move probably is 5...Bb4

5... Qc7 is fashionable at the moment.

After 5...Bb4 Black is not forced to capture with Bxc3, but having the queenside pawns broken up is still a worry for White.

There is not a lot of information or praxis on this line, which may be in Black's favor.

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 Bb4  (6. Nxc6 may be what White will play here).

x-4610353737

in the game Shakaali posted y did the white trade his queen for a rook??it wasnt blocked was it??
or even if it had reached to a positin where it could not escape it could have avoided that position if it had not taken the knight.....

in early white had spent too much material to gain a queen but now it just trade it??

Shakaali
antinoob2 wrote:

in the game Shakaali posted y did the white trade his queen for a rook??it wasnt blocked was it??
or even if it had reached to a positin where it could not escape it could have avoided that position if it had not taken the knight.....

in early white had spent too much material to gain a queen but now it just trade it??


Well technically white traded the queen against rook, knight and pawn so the material difference is not that big. I haven't done any deeper analysis of this game but to me it seems that around move 24 white's position is quite bad already as his pawns in e4 and f3 are collapsing. If after Rh5 he just plays Qc1 or Qe3 (after Qxf6 the Queen can't escape: 25. Qf4 Bg5) black can take both of these pawns with chek when his pieces are all over white's position. So, it's possible that white hopes to reduce the pressure by exchanging some material. Also, it's could well be that white missed the Rh5 shot in his preliminary calculations.