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Defense to e4 that leads to a Blackmar Diemer Gambit setup for black.

  • #1

    I cant seem to find any logical set of moves against e4 that end up with black having a BDG setup.

    Any ideas?

  • #2

    Scandinavian gambit is kinda like it, but reversed.

  • #3

    BDG is a  set up made by White. So Black cannot force white to gambit the e4 pawn unless W wants to..

  • #4

    There is no such a setup since you are playing a tempo down. But why would you want to play such a bad openings as black? 

  • #5

    I was just curious about a possbile transposition for skittles.  Logically it seemed impossible.

  • #6

    The Soller Gambit is an attempt, but the BDG is questionable to begin. Playing it down a tempo is only for the brave/foolish.It is actually more dangerous than it looks: http://www.chesscafe.com/text/mcgrew33.pdf

  • #7
    tmkroll wrote:

    The Soller Gambit is an attempt, but the BDG is questionable to begin. Playing it down a tempo is only for the brave/foolish.It is actually more dangerous than it looks: http://www.chesscafe.com/text/mcgrew33.pdf

    Which of course omits the TRUE best move of e4 by white. This makes the gambit effectively unsound, both in the 2...f6 version and the proper 3...f6 version. For example:

     

    There's not a master alive that would prefer black's position at the end of that sequence, yet those were the best moves black could make.



  • #8

    I am aware of the Soller, but it cannot be played after 1.e4. 

    1.d4 e5 2. dxe5 f6 3. exf Nxf6 is the line of the Englund Gambit: Soller Line I'd play in Blitz or skittles games for fun, because I know reams of Blackmar Deimer Gambit mainlines, sidelines, traps, attacks on the castled king, positions and themes in the BDG lines. 

    And undoubtedly, being a tempo and a pawn down makes it really rough on black in the Soller.  No such thing as a good endgame via the Soller... just club play.. stuff for fun.

  • #9

    You can try

  • #10

    @NM NM-Dale,

    Very cool.  Thanks!

  • #11
    tubebender wrote:

    Give your real name. Now.

    Why? Was there a problem with what I posted?

  • #12
    tubebender wrote:
    FirebrandX wrote:
    tubebender wrote:

    Give your real name. Now.

    Why? Was there a problem with what I posted?

    No problem. I`d like to see who you played in your last year of USCF playing and in what tournaments. If this is a problem, OK. No harm, no foul as we say in basketball. You are quite right in your analysis. I`m noticing that the more intelligent comments seem to come from fairly high rated players who are still active in USCF OTB events or who just retired from active play.

    You don't see how you came off as insane then?

  • #13

    FireBrandX is a titled correspondence player and recently won the 19th USA CC Championship, was written up on the USCF web site, and was the graphic artist for numerous GAMBIT chess books.  Take a look at his profile and blog.

  • #14
    FirebrandX wrote:
    tmkroll wrote:

    The Soller Gambit is an attempt, but the BDG is questionable to begin. Playing it down a tempo is only for the brave/foolish.It is actually more dangerous than it looks: http://www.chesscafe.com/text/mcgrew33.pdf

    Which of course omits the TRUE best move of e4 by white. This makes the gambit effectively unsound, both in the 2...f6 version and the proper 3...f6 version. For example:

     

     

    There's not a master alive that would prefer black's position at the end of that sequence, yet those were the best moves black could make.



    http://jimwestonchess.blogspot.com/2013/04/lev-zilbermintz-analyzes-soller-gambit.html

  • #15
    tubebender wrote:
    FirebrandX wrote:
    tubebender wrote:

    Give your real name. Now.

    Why? Was there a problem with what I posted?

    Patrick, I will respect your privacy. I am very impressed with your credentials. Peace.

    My name isn't Patrick. But yeah, peace, live long and prosper, all that good stuff.

  • #16

    Posting an article on a game where white blundered away the advantage doesn't mean the opening is good for black. It is theoretically unsound, and no amount of mistakes from amatuers will change that.

  • #17
    FirebrandX hat geschrieben:
    tmkroll wrote:

    The Soller Gambit is an attempt, but the BDG is questionable to begin. Playing it down a tempo is only for the brave/foolish.It is actually more dangerous than it looks: http://www.chesscafe.com/text/mcgrew33.pdf

    Which of course omits the TRUE best move of e4 by white. This makes the gambit effectively unsound, both in the 2...f6 version and the proper 3...f6 version. For example:

     

     

    There's not a master alive that would prefer black's position at the end of that sequence, yet those were the best moves black could make.



    Instead of 4...fxe5 you have to play 4...Bc5 which is much stronger.

    With best play from both sides surely white has a position which is close to refutation for this gambit.

    But on club-level the Soller-Gambit is a very good weapon for tactical players...

  • #18
    FirebrandX wrote:

    Posting an article on a game where white blundered away the advantage doesn't mean the opening is good for black. It is theoretically unsound, and no amount of mistakes from amatuers will change that.

    That's not what I meant. You didn't address the d6 plan at all, which I think some strong players, Bucker, etc.. think is best after your e4. White overplays this game, but what if White hadn't kept pressing and sacrificed material unsoundly? Black gets a displaced King but a 2 to 1 majority in the center by simply play "around" f7. If the Bxf7 line of the Traxler is playable for Black why not this sort of position too? I'm not saying it looks "good for black" by any stretch of the imagination but you said you had the true refutation of the Soller making the gambit effectively unsound so you have to show it's losing for Black... which it might be, but all you showed us was a contuation after d5.

  • #19
    Dark_Falcon wrote:

    Instead of 4...fxe5 you have to play 4...Bc5 which is much stronger.

    With best play from both sides surely white has a position which is close to refutation for this gambit.

    But on club-level the Soller-Gambit is a very good weapon for tactical players...

    4...Bc5 doesn't magically make the position better for black. White still has Nc3 and Bc4 coming either way. It's just plain fundamentally bad for black. You shouldn't play weak openings just because a weak opponent might get confused on how to handle it. WHat will happen is you'll eventually get crushed when you have to play up, and the opening gets abandoned. That's why these things just don't hold up in the long run.

  • #20
    FirebrandX hat geschrieben:
    Dark_Falcon wrote:

    Instead of 4...fxe5 you have to play 4...Bc5 which is much stronger.

    With best play from both sides surely white has a position which is close to refutation for this gambit.

    But on club-level the Soller-Gambit is a very good weapon for tactical players...

    4...Bc5 doesn't magically make the position better for black. White still has Nc3 and Bc4 coming either way. It's just plain fundamentally bad for black. You shouldn't play weak openings just because a weak opponent might get confused on how to handle it. WHat will happen is you'll eventually get crushed when you have to play up, and the opening gets abandoned. That's why these things just don't hold up in the long run.

    Its always the same discussion...

    Yes,you are right and i have the same opinion as you have about the Soller Gambit (and other unsound black gambits)...with good or best play from the White side, it will be tough for black.

    On the other side, i really like unusual positions and when you are booked up with these bad gambits and you know the plans in the middlegame, you can have much success on club-level, as you mostly find unprepared opponents.Its easy to talk about refutation of crap openings in a forum, with the right book in your hand or with agood computer program in correspondence. But in OTB or blitz games its hard to find the right answers, if youve never or rarely met these openings before.

    Personally i raised my ratings drastically since ive started to played unsound crap like the Soller.

    Sure...you cant always play the same variation as a gambit player, but when you have a wide range of possible gambits in your repertoire, its hard for a tournament opponent to prepare for you.

    If you prepare for the Soller Gambit, i can play the Blackburne-Hartlaub- or the Felbecker-Gambit or just a Mainline in the Englund...all after 1.d4 e5 2.dxe5.

    It must be a miracle for such a good player like you are, but its definitely the truth....these openings offer you practical chances,if you know, what you are doing on the board.

    And at least, its much more fun for people like me than to memorize 25 moves in the semi-slav QGD.


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