Interesting Idea in the Sicilian: the Ginsburg Gambit

melvinbluestone

   In the never-ending quest to disorient the Sicilian player, I came across this curious idea: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf6 d6 3.c4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Bc4. Another variation on the old quick attack on f7. I thought the name was a typo, figuring it's supposed to be "Gunsberg", as in the 19th century player. But actually it's from IM Mark Ginsberg, though it's probably been tried by others before him. Maybe he's just done a lot of analysis on it. Anyway, black is fine to just ignore the free e pawn and continue developing along the usual lines of the Sicilian. But the material-biased engines say it can be taken with a slight edge for black. After all, the way to refute a gambit, etc. In any case, it can be a lot of fun in blitz games.

eaguiraud

Really interesting, is there a known refutation or critical line?

melvinbluestone
eaguiraud wrote:

Really interesting, is there a known refutation or critical line?

    Well, there's probably not a "refutation", but it must be considered somewhat inferior or you'd see it more often in master level games, I think. But on the mediocre schlemiel level where I am, it's good enough for some crazy stuff and even a win now and then! Of course, black's gotta' go for the pawn, otherwise it can just transpose into the more normal lines of the Sicilian after something like 5...Nc6 or e6 or even a6.

 

BronsteinPawn

You should look at Bxf7+ instead of Qh5 too.

I am not a fan of this approaches, which are quite common cheapos against the Alekhine. Where Black is actually better.

What I dont like is that Black can just play e6 when you are virtually forced to enter a Scheveningen Sozin attack, which is not that popular, or good I think. Black's idea was to play e6 anyways...

As Black I wouldnt take the pawn. Stockfish says this is equal, but I dont like it.

Uhohspaghettio1
BronsteinPawn wrote:

You should look at Bxf7+ instead of Qh5 too.

I am not a fan of this approaches, which are quite common cheapos against the Alekhine. Where Black is actually better.

What I dont like is that Black can just play e6 when you are virtually forced to enter a Scheveningen Sozin attack, which is not that popular, or good I think. Black's idea was to play e6 anyways...

As Black I wouldnt take the pawn. Stockfish says this is equal, but I dont like it.

I don't see how it's inferior to the regular Sozin, what can black do except play a6 where he is into a Sozin proper? 6. Bg5 is the one that's ineffective against the Scheveningen. 

 

 

BronsteinPawn

Black doesnt have to play a6 and transpose into a Najdorf. Which already comes in handy. That is why I think it is inferior than the Sozin Attack of the Najdorf.

Uhohspaghettio1

Well that is a stupid reason. White also "doesn't have to play" Nc3 but it "already comes in handy" yet you don't call it a superior sozin because of it. 

BronsteinPawn

No. It is not a stupid reason. 

Whats your analogy with Nc3?

 

If I knew White was going to play Bc4 I would play e6, not wasting time with a6. Because a6 does nothing to aid Black's development, and after Bc4 you are not playing e5 anytime soon. Meanwhile e6 does aid Black's development. 

But I guess you are stupid enough not to believe my sensible explanation and even say my reason is stupid, so here is just a sample line to show why not playing a6 could come in handy.

 

eaguiraud

melvinbluestone wrote:

eaguiraud wrote:

Really interesting, is there a known refutation or critical line?

    Well, there's probably not a "refutation", but it must be considered somewhat inferior or you'd see it more often in master level games, I think. But on the mediocre schlemiel level where I am, it's good enough for some crazy stuff and even a win now and then! Of course, black's gotta' go for the pawn, otherwise it can just transpose into the more normal lines of the Sicilian after something like 5...Nc6 or e6 or even a6.

 

I will definitely give this a try, thanks.

Uhohspaghettio1
BronsteinPawn wrote:

No. It is not a stupid reason. 

Whats your analogy with Nc3?

 

If I knew White was going to play Bc4 I would play e6, not wasting time with a6. Because a6 does nothing to aid Black's development, and after Bc4 you are not playing e5 anytime soon. Meanwhile e6 does aid Black's development. 

But I guess you are stupid enough not to believe my sensible explanation and even say my reason is stupid, so here is just a sample line to show why not playing a6 could come in handy.

 

 

"a6 does nothing to help black's development".... you joking? meh.png a6 is the absolute core part of most Sicilian systems, not playing a6 is almost a sideline except perhaps as I pointed out after 6. Bg5. The bishop going to Bb7 for a direct example of development, but that entire pushing the pawns back enabling super fast development. The other way is not to move those pawns but to go messing around with knights and stuff, it's slower. 

In fact a6 is particularly useful in development against the Sozin. Because it doesn't take wild imagination to realize that b5 is coming and then Bb7 in most lines. Not developing? If anything because of the bishop on c4, a6 is more useful here than against any other possible move of white's.   

Check any databases, even after a player has played e6 (Scheveningen), after 6. Bc4 most still play a6, this directly contradicts your theory that black shouldn't play it. John Emms recommends it in his book on the Scheveningen. I don't really care to argue about it, I thought you might have a valid reasoning or legitimate opinion that's why I asked.  

 

BronsteinPawn

a6 is a move that will be played in every Sicilian because usually the idea is to play a minority attack with b5. However the move order matters. And keeping options flexible also matter.

I already showed you lines with Na6 which have proven to be annoying for White and score well for Black. I have already talked to you about how effective Nbd7-Nc5 setups are, and how you can't get them if you play a6 transposing into a Najdorf  and White chooses a 7.0-0 move order.

 

I also dont really care to argue with a troll, that dismisses every argument, and is detrimental to both his opponents and persons that do not share the same opinion, feel free to go to hell.

MrcoolTD

lol

Vicente9999

lmao.  Pretty interesting stuff.Wink

Skydras
there is interesting line, after 29. Kd2, opponent stop resistence

there, is interesting game

congrandolor

Interesting. Does ches.com have a favourites issue so you can keep there the posts you like?

melvinbluestone
congrandolor wrote:

Interesting. Does ches.com have a favourites issue so you can keep there the posts you like?

   I guess you can just click on 'following' in Forums. That does about the same thing.

       Lately I've tried interposing the check on b5 before playing Bc4. The point is that if black plays the usual Nbd7, his LSB no longer controls e6. at least temporarily. So if black grabs the loose e-pawn, the ole' bishop sac on f7 works a lot better, as in this game:

 

NLarsen3
Hi