Need a plan for this Pirc endgame position.

I'm being repeatedly humbled by Computer Level 10 in this position from the Pirc Defense, where I'm playing White. I'd swear White has a significant advantage here, and with little danger, since Black has doubled isolated e-pawns, Black can't castle, Black has lost at least one tempo from my "queen slap," and there are no queens on the board. But evidently I don't know how to exploit those doubled pawns, or where I should put my pieces, or in general what my plan should be, so then the computer finds a way to win. This is another of those endgames where there are many pawns on the board and often I just don't know how to handle such positions.

I want to inform you that this is a theoretical endgame and the double pawns are not such a big weakness as you might think. In GM play most of the times ends up in a draw.

Now an interesting way to play since in comparison with the Philidor endgame here you don't have omit Nf3 is to develop your knight via h3. Try the maneuver Nh3-Nf2 and in coordination with Bg5 you might find something to put pressure. Don't give up the Bishop on f6, retreat and put pressure on e5 pawn. That will keep Black pieces more tight but an engine will have no problem to defend. At least you will not have to worry how to keep your pawns intact.

Thanks, Bishop_g5. At least I won't feel so bad, as if I'm missing some obvious win. Black's bishop on that diagonal pointing to g1 is an annoyance. Somewhere in the database I found that White had only three possible moves to keep that bishop from invading: Nd1 (which was the least appealing), and two others, but I can't find my notes on those at the moment.

Here is another game from the database with that type of position:

U can also try 6. Bg5 followed by 7. O-O-O(+) instead of your "Kotronias attack" 6. Bc4.

let us see...position after Kxd8; black has lost castle, but does it matter in this endgame, not so much.

and see developed pieces; Nf6 attacks , Nc3 defends; so it menas white has to do something with e4 pawn, and this is most likely f2-f3 (read: loss of one tempo). Then  see  weak points; black  weak is d5 which is defended by Nf6 and may be with c7-c6, easy. White weak point is d4 and can not be defended by c2-c3! Further, after for example c7-c6 black also defends (in one move) b5 square and allows immediate b7-b5 with pressure on e4 again. White has problem of possible Bf8-b4 too.

If you go early with counterplay, Ng1-f3 with king on d8 you ll  get nothing because black may plan Rh8-e8 ... and of course there is always immediate Bb4 with counterplay on e4.

then we have position with black doubled pawns e5,e6; looks bad if we consider moveability but - these two pawns control 4 central squares, and main thing white does not have d5 or f5 for his knights untill end of game. and e5 makes weak points on d4 and f4 for black knights, then if f2-f3 is played, black has half open f file and may organize pressure (does not matter this is defended by g2) but placing rook on f8 and going with knight on h5 he may organize minor attack by g7-5-4 and so on.... files on kingside might be opened with black rooks active and white rook behing his own pawns.

and there is ideal square to develop bishop, c5, ok you played Na4 at some moments, but this is not enough since there is way to retreat bishop or take on g1 maybe, with tempo, and in one game black show to you how this knight on a4 bad is, after defending c5 with b6 yo had to lose tempo to put this knigh back in game...

so don't think this post shows that this game is "lost for white", still i like more white position, but must not be approached like white is one who must win this, this is position which demand patient and long game, and final execution for both sides is not shaped with initial position at all.

jut wanted to show you how much approach is there for black which compensate some drawbacks for sure.

The position is about equal, maybe slight edge for white - nothing out of the normal. 

The black position looks bad, but it's totally fine, since e6+e5 pawns are actually quite good at controlling the center - note that you only have one center pawn. 

Furthermore, there's no way for you to attack these weaknesses. 

Nevertheless, white is fine, but this is far from close to winning. 

my recommendation is playing 4.Nf3. It avoids going into the drawish endgame.

1 question...

How did your bishop go from d6 to d4 in 1 move?

sorry but with all the rooks on board including 8 light pieces this is far away from draw and there might be lots of events going on...

Still think going into this endgame white makes favour to black making his life more easier, but depends on individual style, many top players still do not rush for opening advantage but for position which they feel most comfortable at the moment. 

Best is Nf3, but there is still lots of choice, Ng1-e2 with f2-f3 migh be some of them.

I played this a lot before with black and I almost always won. It's a good endgame for black

I went through all the games (and deleted one since it had a slightly different variation) but I didn't see any like what you are talking about.

Maybe its a V2 thing, but here are the moves in the first diagram.

8... Bd6"Al Sayed Defense." 
9. Na4Bd4"Stadler Defense." 

Yes, I'm starting to realize from what everybody is saying that this is far from a superior position for White as I formerly thought. I agree that with the queens off the board Black doesn't need to castle. Also, although it looks like Black lost two tempi...

...Kxd8

...Ke7

...it can be argued that White lost two tempi in order to reach roughly the same position...

Qxd8+

O-O-O

...and Black's king is better centralized!

My question about this position is more general than it appears because there is a similar position that sometimes occurs in the Staunton-Cochrane Sicilian, and I've had a hard time finding a "forced win" there, too. [game deleted: scoring error found]

I'm in the old chess.com now so that I can use the Set Focus option to show the board at a non-starting position, an option that doesn't exist in the new chess.com (as far as I can tell), so maybe it's a version problem because that first game still works fine for me.

Aha. I think you might have nailed it. You're right: 7. Nf3 is more popular and far more frequent than 7. f3. I chose f3 because I'm more used to f3/f6 type positions in other openings (such as the Ruy Lopez Exchange Variation), but Nf3 is less passive and appears to give more counterplay.

1. e4 d6 {Pribyl System.}
2. d4 Nf6
3. Nc3 {Pirc Defense.} e5 {"Strikovic Defense."}
4. dxe5 {"Vaisser Attack."} dxe5
5. Qxd8+ Kxd8
6. Bc4 {"Kotronias Attack."} Ke8 {"Georgiev Defense."}

7. Nf3 {"Rublevsky Attack." #1 pop. n 50%.}
7. f3 {"Torok Attack." #2 pop. n 53%.}

It looks like you have the definitive word here, though I didn't respond at first because I had to look this up. Both you and mickynj referred to Philidor's Defense, but neither of you specified to which variation of Philidor's Defense this transposed, or at which move, and the database did not mention anything about Philidor's Defense until it got to 4...Nbd7, as shown below.

1. e4 d6 {Pribyl System.}
2. d4 Nf6
3. Nc3 {Pirc Defense.} e5 {"Strikovic Defense."}

4. Nf3 {"Zelcic Attack." #1 pop. w 40%. can transpose-to Philidor's Defense.}
   4...Nbd7 {Philidor's Defense, Improved Hanham Variation. #1 pop. w 39%.}
4. dxe5 {"Vaisser Attack." #2 pop. n 46%.}
4. Nge2 {#3 pop. w 46%.}
4. f4 {#4 pop. w 39%.}

So you were exactly right. Just as I had chosen 7. f3 instead of the more popular 7. Nf3, I had also chosen 4. dxe5 instead of the more popular 4. Nf3. So the real lesson I learned from this thread is that if I want to avoid weird and difficult endgames like this I should stick with the #1 most popular moves. If nothing else, there will be more examples in databases of how to play them properly. Sorry for wasting everyone's time.

This is a Philidor's defense and white is slightly better; black plays 3...e5 because he wants to avoid some lines, like the King's Gambit ( black moves 1...d6; 2...Nf6; 3...e5), by playing 1...d6 black can guarantee his setup, if he start with 1..e5 he has to meet the King's gambit or other gambits he doesn't want to play against.

Good info, thanks. I'll have to code that info into my repertoire somehow. Mostly I've heard how players use transpositions to disguise their intentions, not to ensure they get the variations they want and/or avoid variations they don't want.

I saw that as well.  It controls the d-file, and allows Nf3, threatening the Black d-Pawn, possibly forcing a passive Black response while connecting the White Rooks.

Do not be disappointed after all, you did not waste any time,it is from my side good post, I have learnt some news too.

Maybe we still do not understand what you want, so you want to avoid main lines and in this particular you insist on dxe5 exchange and now we should start discussion?

No you should not stick for most popular moves, from my side I do not appreciate those players at all, chess should be investigated and played based on individual taste, avoiding main analysis does not mean playing incorrect lines or whatsoever. For example there is similar idea in King Indian, and ex WCH Kramnik used to apply it, and these endgames offer a lot of play.

So if we stick back to this position after Kxd8, maybe Bc1-e3 setup is ok, following with Ng1-e2, f2-f3 and 0-0-0.

so for example something like this, or with some deviations, does not matter; this endgame as a white you should try to organize your knights to attack weakest black point - e5 pawn, which can not be easily defended, or yes but then black king in some deep endgame must stay on d6 blocking d file or f6 away from queenside pawns...

black main target is Nf4 with pressure on kingside pawns, so lots of manouevring and patience is required here. as we said previously, black has good game in these endgame, menas it is much easier to play with absence of queens and control of some important central squares, but main problem for black is how to protect e5 if attacked....

and you can instead 0-0-0 play also Ng1-e2, if black takes on e4 and 0-0-0+ follows with Ne4-d6, yes he is pawn up, but what kind of pawn is that? double pawns, isolated others, on e file will become target for your rooks very soon; you got it? you give one pawn initially but this gives you ability to attack two pawns later, and if you get back only one, the remaining one on e6 becomes big weak point in the rest of game...

If black does not take Nf6-e4, good, after f2-f3 you may go 0-0 or Be3-f2-g3 again pointing on weak e5.

Ok do not think this is winning idea for white, still black has lots to do but, some guidance for how to play.