I have a random question regarding the Panno against either the fianchetto KID lines or Samisch. I thought that I had either seen in a video somewhere or read an article about this formation for black that stated in some line(can't remember if it was against fianchetto line or Samisch) that playing Rb8 prior to a6 can be more accurate due to some move or idea from White making a6 either losing a tempo or less desirable than Rb8 first. Does this ring any bells with anyone? Is there ever a time where it is more accurate to play Rb8 first? I could be completely wrong and be misremembering something, but I couldn't find where I had initially heard this idea of playing Rb8 first. I did some database snooping and couldn't really find a line for White that made me regret playing the Nc6/a6/Rb8 move order. Any KID/Panno players with insight on this? I'm looking to solidify my repertoire against these two lines and at this point I think the Panno is the most practical.
You probably read it on the forums, which means it was probably wrong.
No, the more I thought about it the more I realized that I heard this from a GM on a youtube video, just not sure what video exactly. I didn't expect to get an answer to this question anyways, the title doesn't say "e4 or d4????????????????????????????????????"
Thanks for the informative reply! That might be what I was thinking of...the timely Bd7 move. I noticed you didn't show white's 7th move in the lines you listed....I'm assuming it would be Nge2?
If anyone has any input on the Rb8/a6 order please throw it my way, as well as Panno information against the Fianchetto KID, as I still seem to remember in this video the GM saying that playing Rb8 prior to a6 could be more accurate due to THIS: (can't remember). And the more I think about it the more I think it was the Fianchetto KID.
Yes I think know what you mean.
The Panno uses this move order
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. f3 o-o 6. Be3 Nc6 7. a6 8. Qd2 Rb8.
Against this move order white can continue 9. Rc1 Bd7 10. Nd1 and answer 10...b5 with 11. c5 keeping control of the centre and gaining ground on the Q-side. Note the white N can go to f2 and he can develop K side with g3, Bg2 and o-o.
Black can't play the intended b5 on move 9...b5 because after 10. cxb5 axb5 11. Nxb5 the Nc6 is undefended and so white would win a pawn.
The New Panno uses this move order.
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. f3 o-o 6. Be3 Nc6 7. a6 8. Qd2 Bd7!? (before Rb8)
Now 9. Rc1 doesn't make any sense since the Nc6 is protected after 9..b5 10. cxb5 axb5 11. Nxb5. And this forces white to adopt another plan and play 9. g4.
I suspect this is the line and info you were talking about. The relation between whether to go Rb8 or Bd7 first and not the order of a6 and Rb8. Hopefully this rings a bell now you see it in black and white.
If memory serves, this is pretty much exactly how Schandorff breaks it down in the second volume of his GM Rep series, where he gives the Samisch as his choice.
The swapping of the move orders 7...a6 and 7...Rb8 is more likely something you remember from the fianchetto variation. This is gone into in absurd depth in Avrukh. I'll tell you that against 7...a6, he recommends 8.Qd3, and gives no fewer than seven legit move 8 follow-ups for black that white must be prepared for if he hopes to maintain an advantage. Against 7...Rb8, he prefers h3, maintaining flexibility and preparing g4 if needed, e.g., against ...Bf5 lines. Rather than give away his lifeblood for free, I'll leave you to research the lines deeper if you so choose.
Wojo's Weapons gives 8.b3 against the 7...a6 move order, but doesn't discuss black's 7th move alternatives as far as I can see. But it's probably one more thing to be ready for.
Thanks for the help! Wow, two helpful replies on the chess.com forums...what is going on??? Anyways, I think you might've found the idea that I couldn't remember, the Qd3 idea. Which book by Avrukh goes into these lines? I'd be interested in looking deeper into this stuff, the KID is very interesting to me.
That's from v.2 of Avrukh's original 1.d4 Grandmaster Repertoire series. v.1 is all Catalan, I think.
The fact that this is not the only line in which he gives no fewer than seven legit replies you have to be ready for is why I have abandoned for all time the feeling that I might want to bother with the Grandmaster Repertoire series. It's just way more depth than I need. But they're still pretty cool.
Thanks, I have volume 1 of his 1.d4 series, it covers Catalan/Slav/offbeat QG lines as well as QGA. Definitely an in-depth tome...I only use it for periodic reference on certain lines/ideas. I might have to try and snag a beat up used copy of volume 2 for the KID section. Thanks for help JohnStormcrow and aronchuck.